Justin Gammella Interview

1:40 Justin Gammella Oh

1:40 Luke F. Walton What's good, everybody? Welcome back to Love Music More. I am Scoobert Doobert, and I am joined with Justin Gammella. Welcome to the show, my man.

1:48 Justin Gammella Hey, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

1:50 Luke F. Walton I'm so excited to talk to you about everything from production to songwriting to your musical journey and also your advocacy and your involvement within the crazy world that is getting songwriters paid.

2:03 Justin Gammella Yeah, it's really, it's tough.

2:05 Luke F. Walton yeah yeah yeah

2:06 Justin Gammella Honestly, like, you know, having friends who are actors and screenwriters and stuff, we have it the toughest, I can easily say.

2:13 Luke F. Walton i'm so excited to unpack that and i for the for the listeners i think that there is a very common kind of misperception or perception that music is so glamorous that it is a reward unto itself and while i somewhat agree i'll be i'll make music regardless if i get paid or not But maybe that's the problem, right?

2:35 Justin Gammella Yeah, I think because, you know, we all love doing this and we're all so amazed that like, oh my God, like I can make any kind of money doing this.

2:45 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

2:46 Justin Gammella You know, so many people are prone to just say yes to any kind of deals. And I think whether it's in the pop song writing space or in sync or whatever else, it's been a really.

2:58 Justin Gammella slow race to the bottom in terms of how we get paid and what we get paid for and what we don't get paid for and how we value our time and our creativity

3:08 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

3:09 Justin Gammella yeah

3:09 Luke F. Walton Yeah. And for the music listeners, you want your artists getting paid because that means that they're going to keep showing up and making the music that you want them to make and not have to go into construction or accounting or all of the usual things that musicians end up fighting their ways into.

3:23 Justin Gammella yeah yeah you know it's um You know, we'll talk about it, but the ways how artists and songwriters get paid are similar but different, and

3:31 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

3:32 Justin Gammella we're fighting the same battles, and it all comes down to really these streaming platforms like Spotify and YouTube and Apple and Amazon all paying their fair share, you know?

3:44 Luke F. Walton Totally. And understanding, I think, you know, getting fans bought in as well to

3:49 Justin Gammella Exactly.

3:49 Luke F. Walton be like, hey, like if I get the premium version of XYZ, that money goes to the artist. But yeah, there's been some rocks in the streams, so to speak.

4:00 Justin Gammella For a while.

4:01 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

4:02 Justin Gammella Yeah.

4:02 Luke F. Walton So we'll unpack that before we get there, though. I want to I want to talk a little bit about your background. How did you get into songwriting? How did you kind of find your foothold? And also, where are you based currently?

4:12 Justin Gammella So I'm currently based in Los Angeles. I'm in Glendale currently. Love it here. Nice and quiet little neighborhood.

4:18 Luke F. Walton Yeah, Glendale rocks.

4:19 Justin Gammella Yeah, I'm originally from Long Island, New York. And, you know, I started my music journey. I started playing piano when I was five years old. I classically trained, picked up guitar when I was 10 or 11. And then, you know, around 12, 13, I started having this.

4:38 Justin Gammella It's where I was just kind of writing my own songs and really rebelled against my piano lessons where I was like, I don't want to be playing other people's music anymore. This is stupid.

4:50 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

4:50 Justin Gammella And I stopped taking piano lessons. I purely focus on guitar lessons and I love my guitar teacher because he, I think he sensed in me that I wanted to write and he really taught me, not proper songwriting, but he taught me how to be creative and, you know, the first form of writing is improvising when you're soloing. And he pushed that so much in me and it was such a great lesson.

5:15 Justin Gammella But from there, you know, I was a... In bands in high school, nothing crazy, always, you know, making records in my room on my crappy computer. I used Sonar because my

5:27 Luke F. Walton Yeah, nice.

5:28 Justin Gammella dad cracked a version of it somehow and,

5:30 Luke F. Walton Awesome.

5:30 Justin Gammella you know, went to school and I actually ended up going to college at the University of Buffalo. I was majoring in psychology. And same thing there. I just found my way in the music scene there, joined a band,

5:47 Luke F. Walton Mm

5:47 Justin Gammella did

5:47 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

5:47 Justin Gammella the thing there for a little while, graduated in five years because we decided to go touring one semester and I failed that semester. Totally worth it.

5:56 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

5:57 Justin Gammella And from there, you know, I graduated. I was working at the Jewish community center at the after school program. I was running it. It was honestly an amazing job.

6:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

6:06 Justin Gammella And all the while I was kind of starting to dip my toes into producing other. Other bands locally in the Buffalo area met this one guy named Aaron Bonus and he was like, yeah, I have some connections in the sync world. You know, you're really talented. We should do some stuff there.

6:25 Luke F. Walton And what is sync, just in case somebody doesn't

6:26 Justin Gammella Yeah,

6:27 Luke F. Walton know?

6:27 Justin Gammella so sync is the music that you hear in commercials and TV and film, kind of in the background or sometimes it's like a custom made song or sometimes they're like. hey we're looking for at this time it's like we're looking for like an imagine dragons type beat and

6:40 Luke F. Walton Okay, okay.

6:41 Justin Gammella so they can't they don't want to pay for imagine dragons because that's too much money but they'll pay someone like me to make something similar

6:48 Justin Gammella And through a lot of those briefs, we kind of fell into making a sound and we started a band called Royal Tongues that was buzzy is the best word to describe it.

7:00 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:00 Justin Gammella You know, we got to open for cool bands like Bleachers and Young the Giant and a bunch of other ones.

7:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:06 Justin Gammella And that got us our first publishing deal, moved out to Los Angeles, and the project lasted not too long. I personally realized, like, I hate being in a band. I love making music. I hate being an artist.

7:21 Luke F. Walton I

7:21 Justin Gammella You

7:21 Luke F. Walton want to

7:21 Justin Gammella know,

7:21 Luke F. Walton unpack

7:21 Justin Gammella I wasn't even

7:22 Luke F. Walton that.

7:22 Justin Gammella the singer.

7:22 Luke F. Walton Let's unpack that a little bit. Let's see if you set psychology degree and unpack that a little bit.

7:25 Justin Gammella Right. Yeah,

7:26 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:26 Justin Gammella you know, I just I didn't like touring. I love playing live. I hate touring.

7:30 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:31 Justin Gammella And

7:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:31 Justin Gammella being an artist is such a full-time gig,

7:33 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:33 Justin Gammella never mind making the music, but just being an artist Right. is so time-consuming. Yes. And I just realized I was so much happier being in here doing

7:41 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:41 Justin Gammella this.

7:42 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

7:43 Justin Gammella Because

7:43 Luke F. Walton absolutely.

7:43 Justin Gammella when I moved out here, we kind of already wanted to start working with other artists. We were like, oh, we'll be an artist and we'll be kind of a production songwriting duo.

7:52 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

7:52 Justin Gammella So I was able to dip my toes in there. But when the project ended, I kept my management and they helped me to transition to being a full-time songwriter producer and you

8:03 Luke F. Walton Very

8:03 Justin Gammella know seven

8:03 Luke F. Walton cool. That's cool.

8:04 Justin Gammella eight years later here we are yeah

8:06 Luke F. Walton Yeah, I love that. And I think that the touring bit is very interesting because, yeah, that's another example, I think, of perception reality where you see the band playing the show and that part's awesome, but you don't see the load in, load out. You don't see the we're in the soundcheck and my amp doesn't work anymore. Or, you know, see the tire popped or like this, this band shy,

8:28 Justin Gammella yeah

8:29 Luke F. Walton all of their stuff got stolen on tour in America.

8:32 Justin Gammella yeah i've heard too many stories i was so anal about i mean i was kind of a dick but i was happy i was where i made everyone completely unload the van and the then the the storage thing every single time i was like we're taking everything out nothing stays in the van you know uh that's and i never got robbed

8:51 Luke F. Walton Hey,

8:51 Justin Gammella you know

8:52 Luke F. Walton I know totally

8:53 Justin Gammella it's it's something like it sucks to do but it's kind of worth it um

8:56 Luke F. Walton It happens to so many people yeah

8:58 Justin Gammella yeah touring is like the highest highs and the lowest lows that that's how i describe it and some people love living life like that and i do not

9:06 Luke F. Walton i feel like most people do not because it's like if you gave somebody a gig it's like hey uh we're gonna pay you twenty thousand dollars a year and you're gonna be a traveling salesman we're gonna go door-to-door for your entire lives like um yeah

9:18 Justin Gammella right that's what it is and then you know like you get it feels really great when you like uh we did the college circuit and those paid really well and they treated us really well and i was like oh if we could tour like this

9:29 Luke F. Walton right

9:29 Justin Gammella touring

9:29 Luke F. Walton exactly would exactly

9:30 Justin Gammella be great but that's not reality you know you only get to that point once you're like a big big star but

9:35 Luke F. Walton yeah and then it's totally different it's totally

9:37 Justin Gammella it's

9:37 Luke F. Walton different i like i had sideman work and and stuff like that where i was yeah i had the catering and the tour bus and you would you drive so you would finish the gig you get in the tour you shower get in the tour bus fall asleep end up in the next town and the second you wake up there's a hotel room it's like because they bought it the night before so

9:58 Justin Gammella Right.

9:58 Luke F. Walton you can go in and finish your sleep and put together your stuff and then you know you prepare for the gig play the gig and then you've got that same hotel room that night it's like well okay that

10:07 Justin Gammella Yeah.

10:08 Luke F. Walton I can do

10:08 Justin Gammella Yeah. And touring is one of those things that I'm. constantly trying to pound into artists

10:14 Luke F. Walton Mm

10:15 Justin Gammella that

10:15 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

10:15 Justin Gammella i work with heads where it's like for a while because of the pandemic no one was really touring and

10:19 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

10:20 Justin Gammella i think we got used to relying on tiktok and instagram and social media to promote our music but i'm still old school in the way where it's like I still think touring is the best way to create a real fan base that's

10:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

10:32 Justin Gammella going to want to pay to see you and buy things from you and have a long lasting career versus you release a song, it does well, but no one cares about who you are. They

10:41 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

10:41 Justin Gammella care about the song,

10:42 Luke F. Walton Right.

10:42 Justin Gammella you

10:43 Luke F. Walton Totally.

10:43 Justin Gammella know?

10:43 Luke F. Walton Totally.

10:43 Justin Gammella And yeah.

10:44 Luke F. Walton And I'm feeling that with my career too, where I'm getting a little bit of that. I'm trying to answer that though by thinking about like, okay, where does your passion take you? Like, what is the thing that's like, I would be in that van? Japan for Right. me that's Japan where it's

10:55 Justin Gammella Yeah.

10:56 Luke F. Walton like I'm gonna go I'm gonna go play some random shows in Japan because that's awesome and I'm gonna go do that and that's gonna be great but it's like I'm willing to do that kind of level of thing um and also I think it'd be different too as a songwriter if if you were getting that energy from your fan base like I've seen some uh of the um post-hardcore bands and stuff where like

11:19 Luke F. Walton their shows are so fun and engaging and their fans are part of

11:23 Justin Gammella yeah

11:23 Luke F. Walton the show

11:24 Justin Gammella yeah

11:24 Luke F. Walton and the energy that it's like yeah i'd go through hell on earth to reach you guys and so like cultivating that relationship i think that ends up paying dividends and then juices you up so you can keep doing it

11:32 Justin Gammella yeah i mean that's what that's how i was as a teenager where i was like i was you know into emo bands like taking back sunday and brand new and you know like that that was and i would go through hell and high water like you know just to like go see them and and that's that's what you want from your fan base you want

11:47 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

11:48 Justin Gammella your fan base to like you know there's no better feeling than you're in a bumblefuck virginia and someone's like yo i drove two hours to see you like

11:57 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Right.

11:58 Justin Gammella whoa that's incredible that's that's

12:00 Luke F. Walton That makes it all worth it.

12:01 Justin Gammella you know never mind the money that's

12:02 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

12:02 Justin Gammella that you

12:02 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

12:03 Justin Gammella made a commitment to come and see me and there are fans like that and and that's how you know you get to be where you know good examples like where chapel roan is right now like that girl tore her ass off that's all for like three years you

12:15 Luke F. Walton Yes.

12:15 Justin Gammella know and it's and it's paying off there was a slow build and you just have to have the the patience and the wherewithal to to stand by and do that

12:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Right. Right. that's it's a good point but i i hear you it's not for everybody and everybody's got their own path and it's different for bands and solo artists and all that stuff so i hear you okay so you end up uh so now you that's really cool too that you had management that was so flexible and supportive to be able to help you through that transition in your career yeah

12:43 Justin Gammella yeah they were so my my old man i'm not with them anymore this was years ago my old managers were brandon goodman and sean shahan and

12:52 Justin Gammella they i mean they were incredible they also you know not to name drop too much but like they also managed billy ios and FINNEAS and Ashe and a couple other people that like we

13:00 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

13:01 Justin Gammella all kind of really did come up together like when they were managing me they did not have those acts and i was with them when they got them and and that's how i was able to work on some of those projects not billy um done some with some FINNEAS and Ashe and whatever but um you know they

13:16 Justin Gammella saw what i was doing they're like hey we really believe in you we want to help you build and and do the thing and they did and i you know super thankful for those guys um they managed me for like seven years uh

13:28 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

13:29 Justin Gammella it was incredible and uh yeah you know very very lucky i think you know i don't think great management is i don't think having a manager is the most important thing But having bad management can really ruin your career.

13:44 Luke F. Walton I've got some big news everybody. My vinyl record is out. We didn't make a ton of these. These guys are going to sell out and I'd love for you to get your hands on one of them because they're so dope. They're so dope.

13:56 Luke F. Walton And it comes with a whole bunch of like liner notes and pictures and special stuff. The things that really went into making this record and I want you to get your hands on it. So go to scoobertdoobert.pizza. Or check out my Instagram for a link or click the link in the show notes or the bio or wherever you're watching this to pick up your copy.

14:15 Luke F. Walton You know, they're going to sell out. We really did not make very many of these and I want you to have it. It's like a collector's item. So thank you. Thank you for supporting my music and I can't wait for you to hear it actually on physical vinyl. Enjoy the rest of the episode.

14:29 Justin Gammella And if you have a great manager, that can really help your career take off in big ways.

14:34 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

14:34 Justin Gammella You know, it's one of those things where it's like, I currently don't have a manager by choice. I've been fine doing it myself. My publishers are amazing. And

14:44 Justin Gammella i i'm at the point now where it's like i'd rather have no management the bad management because i was so lucky where i had such incredible management i learned so much from them that

14:52 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

14:53 Justin Gammella i was like okay i can do this myself like i'm pretty easy like that and and and you know i've heard so many horror stories of people having really bad managers and just like really tanking their careers you

15:04 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

15:04 Justin Gammella know um

15:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

15:07 Justin Gammella but

15:07 Luke F. Walton No,

15:07 Justin Gammella yeah,

15:07 Luke F. Walton I mean, there's a ton of risk. There's all of these little choices that artists or songwriter can make and then can really impact or cut off that stream in the same way that we were talking about the positive stream of like the band

15:19 Justin Gammella sure.

15:19 Luke F. Walton that drove two hours to come see you and that fills you back up. There are plenty of these other things that can damper you back down and kill your enthusiasm, kill that momentum. So I totally hear that. But I also think, so I'm curious, I'd love to hear more about your relationship with your publishers because I think that having...

15:33 Luke F. Walton i think that having having a team in some way shape or form is really really important at least for me to Get up and keep doing it in

15:42 Justin Gammella Yeah,

15:42 Luke F. Walton the professional.

15:42 Justin Gammella I have an incredible lawyer. He's been my lawyer

15:44 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

15:44 Justin Gammella for the past 10

15:44 Luke F. Walton cool

15:45 Justin Gammella years. And the one thing he always tells me is that your job is to be creative and to make music and everything else should just be on autopilot for you. Not everything else, but most things should be. And I've always taken that to heart. And, you know, my publishers, I'm with Pulse currently. I'm in my second publishing deal. I was with Primer with BMG before and now with Pulse.

16:05 Justin Gammella And You know, I signed with them around three years ago, and Pulse is amazing for me.

16:11 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

16:11 Justin Gammella Not

16:11 Luke F. Walton yeah.

16:12 Justin Gammella every publisher is the right publisher for every songwriter, producer, or artist.

16:16 Justin Gammella it's just like when you're dating someone you know and this goes with managers too but when you're dating someone it's like just because you didn't work out well with this one human doesn't mean someone else won't work out well another you know you have to right you have to work well together and when i was talking to publishers and i and i and when i signed i had like a bigger song kind of popping off so i was talking to almost every major publisher and um i kind of went in with like

16:43 Justin Gammella you know, big gun energy in the sense that I was like, this is what I do. Here's what I'm looking for in a publisher. This is what I'd like you guys to do for me.

16:54 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

16:54 Justin Gammella And I think when you go in with that energy versus being like, well, I don't really know what I want in a publisher. And, you know, if you don't know what you want in a publisher, you might not be ready for a publisher yet.

17:06 Luke F. Walton Okay. Yes.

17:07 Justin Gammella You know, you might still be figuring out like what you do well in a room or how you work best. I know. how I work best currently I know how many sessions a week I want to do I

17:18 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

17:19 Justin Gammella know what I want for my publisher and I was just up front with everyone and some people were like yeah that's not what we do and I was like cool like sounds great and you know and a couple of them were like we do that really well and Pulse was one of those people and you know we worked together for a little while and uh it's been a really great relationship that i've had with

17:37 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

17:38 Justin Gammella him for the past couple years yeah

17:38 Luke F. Walton What is your favorite way to work in a room? Like what is your favorite role to kind of like take on in a songwriting session?

17:46 Justin Gammella my my perfect my my perfect role is

17:48 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

17:48 Justin Gammella uh i'm a producer but i always say i'm a songwriter first because i was a songwriter first um for those also like a top liner is another word for that um and uh for my first couple years i like i was really like half top liner half producer now

18:04 Luke F. Walton Cool.

18:04 Justin Gammella I'm like at least when I'm in sessions I'm producing like 95% of the time but that's just mostly because like I love my studio I have a family I like being able to control when the session can start and end and stuff but my perfect session is like me songwriter artist and maybe sometimes another producer but it's usually those three and how I like to work is I'm really not super focused on the production um

18:30 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

18:31 Justin Gammella i'm more focused on the song i want to get the song right every

18:35 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

18:36 Justin Gammella single time and i'm the kind of person where i call it poking the bear well i will really try and like push everyone to be like ah i want to make this better what's

18:45 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

18:46 Justin Gammella this ah

18:46 Luke F. Walton Okay.

18:47 Justin Gammella the lyric this this lyric is not connecting to like the thesis of our song you know how that just feels random you know i'm that guy that like You know, I'm usually one of the older people in the sessions. I'm 35 now. I'm working with 18, 19, 20, you know,

19:02 Luke F. Walton Uh

19:02 Justin Gammella really

19:02 Luke F. Walton -huh. Yeah,

19:03 Justin Gammella young

19:03 Luke F. Walton yeah, yeah.

19:03 Justin Gammella kids.

19:03 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh.

19:04 Justin Gammella And, you know, I use that experience to my advantage where it's like I'm trying to get the best out of you and challenge you and push you. um and yeah once i feel like we have that song down my goal is to get an amazing vocal at the end of the day and i'll worry about production later whether i'll produce it out whether i think like you know what i think so and so would be dope to finish this production i don't

19:25 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

19:25 Justin Gammella care if my goal is to always make sure the song is going to be the best version of what it can be um and that's for like when i'm working directly with others when i'm doing sessions for like pop pitch stuff and like k-pop stuff it's a little bit different i'm a little bit more focused on production those days because you know especially for k-pop it is so much more about the production the

19:46 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

19:46 Justin Gammella lyrics almost take a back you know because they're going to change it so those days i'm like so much more focused on like okay the melody and the production and i'll dive in deeper on those but my how i like to work is i like to go back and forth between top line and production like that's what i like to do and if i'm in a session where i'm not able to do that like i'm a horrible liar i'm not happy and

20:06 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:07 Justin Gammella you know i'm always trying to keep the vibes up but then it's like i just tell my teams like yeah that person's awesome but like you know i i just like i don't work well with them and

20:14 Luke F. Walton Yeah, right.

20:15 Justin Gammella that's fine i'm

20:16 Luke F. Walton Totally.

20:16 Justin Gammella over i'm over doing sessions i don't want to do anymore i used to be a really big people pleaser like every songwriter is and sometimes sometimes you have to be but it's like i've been doing this long enough where it's like no i i don't have time for to do That kind of thing anymore,

20:30 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

20:30 Justin Gammella you know, right

20:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Well, in that confidence, like you're saying, is the same kind of confidence you were bringing to that publishing negotiation where you're having that quiet confidence of this is the route that I want to go. Same thing like you were talking about significant other or whatever.

20:43 Luke F. Walton It's like understanding what you're looking for and not wasting the time in between so that you can keep down the path that you want to be on rather than exploring other paths like you would have earlier in your career. Now it's like, this is my road. This is what I'm comfortable with it. that this is where i'm bringing the most of myself and

21:00 Justin Gammella Yeah.

21:00 Luke F. Walton we're gonna get the best product at the end of it yeah

21:02 Justin Gammella I mean, I hear so many complaints from songwriters when I'm doing sessions and stuff, right? Where they're like, man, my publisher sucks. And I'm like, well, why? And they'll tell me and they're like, yeah, I'm just like in a bunch of sessions that I don't really want to be doing. And my first question is always, well, have you told them that? And they're like, no.

21:19 Luke F. Walton Mm

21:20 Justin Gammella I'm

21:20 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

21:20 Justin Gammella like, well, you got to have a conversation with them. You know, it's, I think sometimes songwriters, because again, we're creative and we just want to, we're so thankful to be doing this amazing thing that's music. And we're just so like, you know, complacent in just doing it and just being happy versus telling, you know, understanding that.

21:41 Justin Gammella your publisher or your managers is a partnership you don't work for them they don't work for you you don't work for them it's a partnership and you have and partnerships only work if y'all are both super honest with one another and

21:54 Luke F. Walton Yes.

21:54 Justin Gammella uh you and you know you everyone wants everyone to be the best version they can because then everyone's going to make more money so it's

22:03 Luke F. Walton Mm

22:03 Justin Gammella in everyone's best interest so you know that's that's my one thing too it's like reminding songwriters that we love to complain and we love to you know write songs about how annoyed we are things

22:12 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

22:12 Justin Gammella but sometimes we have to step up and sometimes it's having your manager do that with your publisher let them be the bad guy but you it has to be known that like hey like you know I'm in sessions five days a week with people I never know That's killing me like

22:26 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

22:27 Justin Gammella I can do that like me personally I can only work with new people like once or twice a week.

22:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

22:31 Justin Gammella I find it really draining to

22:33 Luke F. Walton It is.

22:33 Justin Gammella do that

22:34 Luke F. Walton It is. Well, especially because songwriting is a very intimate thing.

22:39 Justin Gammella Right

22:40 Luke F. Walton You are going to put out so many ideas that will get rejected, and that's just part of it. You're going to go down, like we're talking about, go down a path and then be like, oh, nope, we're actually going this way.

22:50 Justin Gammella Yep

22:50 Luke F. Walton The central thesis of the song will... will change halfway half

22:52 Justin Gammella Yeah

22:53 Luke F. Walton of the room will suddenly want to change genres or like Throw a total wrench into the path that you saw going in your head now We're actually going over in this direction.

23:02 Justin Gammella right

23:02 Luke F. Walton So the flexibility is key But it's so much easier to be flexible when you know other people's tendencies because then you can anticipate them a little bit Yeah, right

23:10 Justin Gammella and like when you work with people who you work with a ton like you have that unspoken language with

23:15 Luke F. Walton totally

23:15 Justin Gammella one another where you can just like kind of look at each other and be like no this isn't it and it's so much easier to like tell people in a room Guys, this isn't working. Let's start fresh. That

23:24 Luke F. Walton It

23:25 Justin Gammella is

23:25 Luke F. Walton is.

23:25 Justin Gammella with,

23:25 Luke F. Walton Totally.

23:26 Justin Gammella you know, other people who you just met that day. But getting over that fear is key. I think those

23:34 Luke F. Walton Yep.

23:34 Justin Gammella second ideas are usually so much better than the first ones. And especially with new people, like not always with people you work with a ton, but with new people where that first idea is really you feeling each other out and seeing how you write.

23:47 Luke F. Walton Right. Yeah.

23:48 Justin Gammella Yeah. And then once you understand that, you can start a second idea and you're like, okay, I know how this room is going to vibe now and

23:54 Luke F. Walton Cool.

23:54 Justin Gammella I know how

23:55 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

23:55 Justin Gammella I have to be in this room and then that's what I always encourage people to do too. It's like, don't be afraid to throw that idea away. It's there. It's not going anywhere.

24:03 Luke F. Walton Yeah. That's really good advice.

24:05 Justin Gammella Yeah,

24:05 Luke F. Walton That's really good advice.

24:06 Justin Gammella yeah,

24:06 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

24:06 Justin Gammella yeah.

24:06 Luke F. Walton And then that also kind of like depressurizes the situation. I've been in this before where everybody's trying to bring their best selves, especially if you're younger and you're trying to get into a more established. established area like I'm gonna write like the best melody or whatever and

24:19 Justin Gammella Yeah.

24:20 Luke F. Walton then you can kind of exhale and start over and then I think you can bring more of yourself yeah

24:24 Justin Gammella Yeah. The best advice I got years ago, and I don't remember who gave it to me, but now I give it as my own advice is

24:30 Luke F. Walton sounds

24:30 Justin Gammella you're only

24:31 Luke F. Walton good

24:31 Justin Gammella going

24:31 Luke F. Walton cool

24:31 Justin Gammella to write the song you're going to write that day.

24:33 Luke F. Walton yeah

24:34 Justin Gammella That's it. That's all you can do. Like you're going to write a song and that's the song that's going to be that day. And the advice means it's that like you can't.

24:42 Justin Gammella put too much pressure on it to be like this is going to be the best song i'm ever going to write in my life and you just see where it goes follow it don't be afraid to like take a left turn or do something that's like a little bit scary but just like write that song that

24:56 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

24:57 Justin Gammella that the song is kind of pulling you towards like the thing i hate most in sessions is we're doing that like our song is taking us in this like direction that isn't super conventional and someone's like ah but like

25:10 Justin Gammella and I think it's out of fear it's like I don't know like this feels this feels weird to me like we should bring it in this direction and it's like right but the song's going in this direction so it's like let's follow that or just stop writing this because the second you start trying to bring it in multiple different directions it's like it's going to lose its identity and then it's not going to be something cool and original and I think that's when that's what's been great about

25:36 Justin Gammella popular music the last couple years is that you like you look at the top 10 the last couple years and you're like damn these songs are like all over the place you know it's not like how it was like katie perry where like dr luke and max martin were producing every top 10 hit and everything sounded the same now

25:50 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

25:50 Justin Gammella she'd get like a benson boone and a tommy richman and a dasha and you know it's just like it's all over the place i know i think it's super cool music is in a really cool spot right now

26:01 Luke F. Walton Totally. And I think you were mentioning Billie Eilish and FINNEAS have done a very good job mixing it up from record to record.

26:10 Justin Gammella Yeah.

26:11 Luke F. Walton And I think that's helped give other people down the food chain a little bit more. I

26:17 Justin Gammella I

26:17 Luke F. Walton don't know. Allowance.

26:18 Justin Gammella think, yeah, I think they were one of those artists that really kind of allowed people to be like,

26:22 Luke F. Walton Agree.

26:22 Justin Gammella oh, like, we

26:23 Luke F. Walton Agree.

26:23 Justin Gammella can do different things.

26:26 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

26:26 Justin Gammella And like, they were doing different things because they were kids, and

26:29 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

26:29 Justin Gammella they didn't know any better. And, you know, they were just like making music that they thought was cool.

26:35 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

26:35 Justin Gammella And I think that's what, like, that's something I honestly learned from Finn, is that for years I was like chasing trends, and then I started working with him on a couple things. things mind

26:44 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

26:45 Justin Gammella you this kid was 18 and

26:46 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

26:47 Justin Gammella i was i think i was 25 when we were working together when we first started working together and he just be like i don't know like it's cool

26:54 Luke F. Walton Mm

26:55 Justin Gammella like

26:55 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

26:55 Justin Gammella damn it like you're right like

26:57 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

26:57 Justin Gammella don't worry about like like you know for for so long i was always like being like well i gotta use like this kind of thing and whatever and it's just like nah because and and you know i very quickly learned that a year after i started i switched up how i work it's like oh now i'm having success because i'm doing things that i think are fun and cool versus like i don't know following trends unless you're like unless you didn't sink music is the dumbest thing you can do in my opinion

27:20 Luke F. Walton Yeah, that's it. very very reasoned

27:24 Justin Gammella Yeah.

27:24 Luke F. Walton and also like the trends move quickly so

27:26 Justin Gammella Oh, yeah.

27:26 Luke F. Walton when you're chasing them yeah unless it's sync where it's like hey i need you to turn this track around in 48 hours and it needs to sound like this top 40 like okay yeah

27:33 Justin Gammella Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, you know, I feel

27:37 Luke F. Walton uh-huh um what what are some of the things that have been like exciting you more specifically about just like sounds and and recordings and anything that you've identified maybe not as a trend but just like things that have been cool out there in pop music recently

27:53 Justin Gammella like we're kind of pushing up against how clean and You know, almost overproduced things were for a while.

28:03 Luke F. Walton Yes.

28:03 Justin Gammella I feel like we're going back to more raw recordings, things that aren't perfectly mixed, darker mixes, going back to... good engineering you know

28:14 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

28:15 Justin Gammella i think i i don't think it's over but i think the time of like i can make an amazing song on my laptop it's kind of at least not in right now you

28:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

28:23 Justin Gammella listen

28:24 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

28:24 Justin Gammella yeah you

28:24 Luke F. Walton I hear

28:25 Justin Gammella listen to

28:25 Luke F. Walton what you're saying.

28:25 Justin Gammella you listen to all these records and at least what i'm hearing that's taken off and what i personally vibe with i'm listening i'm like oh man this is all engineered really well and it's all recorded really well And that's kind of been my vibe. I've been slowly investing more into more outboard gear, better microphones and preamps and all that other fun stuff.

28:48 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

28:49 Justin Gammella Because my whole philosophy now and how I make records is I want to get things sounding as incredible as they can. before they before it hits the DAW and

29:00 Luke F. Walton mm-hmm mm

29:00 Justin Gammella so now when I'm recording things it's like especially my vocal chain now right where it's like years ago stacked now it's like I have an EQ a multi-band compressor maybe specter to like give it some saturation here and there but like that's it you know I I'm going in with a lot of compression just for my outboard gear and and stuff and the same thing with my synths and my piano my guitars and

29:27 Justin Gammella everything i'm trying to record my guitar amps more often when i can Yeah, usually i'm using my kemper in a session because i don't want to tell people in the session like shut up i gotta record

29:35 Luke F. Walton right.

29:35 Justin Gammella this guitar part you know what i mean um but the kemper's amazing uh you know and uh that's that's i feel like where music is kind of seems to be going and at least what gets me happy i was i was in a band i love recording real things real drums and all that fun stuff and uh you know i'm also not very good at making like

29:55 Justin Gammella you know producing at like super overproduced things like this is what fits my vibe better

29:59 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

30:00 Justin Gammella so

30:00 Luke F. Walton yeah. I think that naturally is happening for a variety of influences and forces at work. And my pet theory is that AI music is going to force real people music to make music that doesn't sound like AI music.

30:19 Justin Gammella yeah i mean ai music i i've been doing a lot of ai stuff in

30:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

30:23 Justin Gammella the sense of like i'm trying to learn a lot about it i'm obsessed with chat gbt um but like the ai music and this is from my very basic understanding of ai is that it's not it seems to it's not going to be able to create anything original

30:39 Justin Gammella all it can do is like listen to what's been done and kind of make a new version of that and it does that really well to be honest like you listen to some of these like 80s style rock songs or like EDM songs and you're like I don't know like it's nothing that like I'm like obsessed with but if I just heard this walking by in a supermarket I would think it was a human made it and I wouldn't think twice about it

31:00 Luke F. Walton Sorry to interrupt this very important broadcast, but it's time for one more advertisement for myself for this podcast. What I'm asking... This is like the most important thing for this podcast to grow. So if you want to do this, you go into the podcast screen, right? You click on the dot, dot, dot on Spotify. Under there, it says rate show and you go and you click it. Five stars.

31:23 Luke F. Walton If you could do that for me, that's the best way for the algorithms and all this stuff to share it out with the world. I know that it's a lot to ask, but if you could please, please, please, just please just hit those three dots and then a five star would really help us out and helps us, you know, get the word out and spread the love of music. So thank you. If you're listening on YouTube, you know what to do.

31:40 Luke F. Walton Like, subscribe, all that good stuff. Thank you so much. And here's the rest of the episode.

31:45 Justin Gammella I'm always a firm believer the more technology pushes up there's always a correction you

31:49 Luke F. Walton I agree.

31:50 Justin Gammella know

31:50 Luke F. Walton I agree.

31:50 Justin Gammella you saw that from the 80s to the 90s I think we're seeing it again now where yeah that correction

31:57 Luke F. Walton Yeah, totally. And I think I fundamentally agree with what you're saying in terms of it is...

32:03 Luke F. Walton expected and it does the expected genres the well-defined genres very well they're

32:08 Justin Gammella Right.

32:09 Luke F. Walton like clear sets of parameters but i think in that there will be a um a push to make things that are harder to define as we're seeing um lyrics that are more surprising as we're seeing i think that just like the element of surprise will get even stronger in music and hopefully it'll grow into a little bit more long form because there was a moment there where songs you

32:29 Luke F. Walton were defined by their like 10 second syncability to like a tiktok video i think that still exists like please please me um or please please please sabrina carpenter um

32:41 Justin Gammella That song's so good though.

32:41 Luke F. Walton it's really good though it is really good though yeah

32:44 Justin Gammella So

32:44 Luke F. Walton i

32:44 Justin Gammella obsessed with that song.

32:45 Luke F. Walton yeah it's a really good song i agree um but that one that one too though is like the whole song is actually really good and there are multiple points that i've seen like reference in videos and stuff um

32:56 Luke F. Walton So hopefully like long form things also come back in vogue because I think that's another way to push against the machine so

33:03 Justin Gammella yeah

33:03 Luke F. Walton to speak like write a six minute song again you know

33:05 Justin Gammella I mean I think people are also so much more wanting albums now too because

33:10 Luke F. Walton Yeah, exactly

33:10 Justin Gammella for so long

33:10 Luke F. Walton exactly

33:11 Justin Gammella everyone's like singles singles singles and

33:12 Luke F. Walton Do

33:12 Justin Gammella I'm like you I

33:12 Luke F. Walton think so do you think so for sure I think

33:14 Justin Gammella think so I I've been seeing people like pushing albums especially with like vinyls getting so popular again I think fans love

33:23 Justin Gammella like i don't know i feel like it's been the last like two years like whenever a big album comes out like everyone listens it's like this like

33:28 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

33:28 Justin Gammella huge event because of spotify this is one of the benefits of spotify that like everyone listens to this album and we're all you know in the cultural zeitgeist talking about it you know what did you think oh i love this song i didn't like that you know it's i think that like things like that are incredible and that you know it's like crazy to see how artists are now uh i mean again bringing up billy again didn't even release a single just

33:50 Justin Gammella just put the album out and

33:51 Luke F. Walton Mm hmm.

33:52 Justin Gammella was

33:53 Luke F. Walton Yes.

33:53 Justin Gammella like oh damn like awesome

33:55 Luke F. Walton Totally.

33:55 Justin Gammella i wish

33:56 Luke F. Walton Totally.

33:56 Justin Gammella that happened more often

33:57 Luke F. Walton I agree.

33:57 Justin Gammella yes

33:58 Luke F. Walton I also I wish that I was allowed to do that. You're I'm not allowed

34:01 Justin Gammella yeah

34:01 Luke F. Walton to do that.

34:02 Justin Gammella i like i don't think any new artist should be just releasing an album i i've i've thought that for like years

34:07 Luke F. Walton I think it's cool.

34:08 Justin Gammella yeah i think it's cool when you can you know there was a time like when i was in a band you know 15 years ago where it's like you would create an album or an ep because that was the merch that you would sell when

34:17 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

34:17 Justin Gammella you were on tour um

34:18 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

34:20 Justin Gammella versus uh you know now it's like i tell artists all the time where it's like people like yeah we want to make an album and i'm like i don't think you're ready yet like

34:27 Luke F. Walton uh-huh yeah

34:28 Justin Gammella that album

34:28 Luke F. Walton i

34:29 Justin Gammella you

34:29 Luke F. Walton i

34:29 Justin Gammella know yeah

34:30 Luke F. Walton think i disagree though uh i

34:31 Justin Gammella yeah

34:31 Luke F. Walton think that the act of making the album sculpts the sculptor as much as vice versa you know what i mean i think that like creating a long form thing even if you never release it even if it sucks is like you're gonna be a different person you're gonna be a different artist by the end of like slaving after you know

34:48 Justin Gammella you know 12 tracks than um one sure well i mean i think the difference is too right where it's like you're an artist you're like i'm assuming you're like doing it mostly yourself as in like producing and editing right and it's like most artists are not all encompassing they have to work

35:02 Justin Gammella that's with people that's a good point yeah like me right and i think it's when i say they're not ready it's like

35:08 Justin Gammella that's an album is a big investment if you're working with other people and true it's a big

35:12 Justin Gammella i think it's like to me it's like i hey listen you want to pay me fifty thousand dollars to do an album for you all right i'll take your money all

35:18 Justin Gammella yes day but yes i also think like that money might be better invested in like touring and building up a fan base so you know that's kind of where i'm coming from right if i if artists like you album makes sense because like your cost to do it is so little but you know like that's what i'm saying like making an album when it's expensive like and and i'm the kind of producer too where it's like i'll bend my

35:39 Justin Gammella um production fee and then try to work out deals where so i don't kill an artist financially

35:43 Justin Gammella Yes. because Yes. i want them to be able to go out and tour and promote the album so that does well for both of us but still i can't like i'm not doing things for free you

35:52 Justin Gammella Yeah. know like Yeah. all the time i can't do it i'll do a song for free you know and work on back end but not a whole album you know No, so

35:58 Justin Gammella no way. No, the time commitment is so massive. it's No, a lot I agree yeah yeah with that. And also, yeah, the amount of modalities that you're like. you're like kind of got your fingers in the pie that probably changes things like for me i grow every record because yeah i'm wearing so many different hats so

36:12 Justin Gammella Right. i'm like growing in a much different ways and i can kind of like have a glomerative of

36:16 Justin Gammella Yeah. x to just like add up into a more of like oh i understand what my sound is um but yeah that's a very good point in terms of size

36:23 Justin Gammella Yeah. I and have a buddy, scope of you your team yeah know, this artist named Unlike Pluto. It's kind of,

36:27 Justin Gammella i do i yeah, know i see you yeah, guys yes Armand, he's like, I mean, we've known each other for years. I used to they used to do some stuff with him and

36:32 Justin Gammella Cool, like he cool, cool. started switching to like he used to be mostly an EDM producer and

36:36 Justin Gammella Yeah. uh do features then he was like oh I can actually sing and Yeah. he was the kind of the artist that like you know kind of kind of where you're coming from like changed my mind where he'd be like yeah I'm gonna make an album I was like are you sure buddy and it's like but he was he was doing it all himself and I was like yeah man like do it and that kid puts out so much music and his fans love it and he has like his own kind of like like world

36:57 Justin Gammella yes yes that he's created and he's and he makes yeah a good living off it i think it's amazing what he's doing

37:02 Justin Gammella yeah totally and and that's that's true like both of these things can be true at the same time depending on what kind of artist you are depending what your your goals are what your sound is all like all that kind of stuff and also yeah what are you what do your fans want um that's and you know one of the weird things for independent artists or small label artists like myself where it's you kind of need as many shots at goal as possible and the goal is

37:23 Luke F. Walton was spotify plus um

37:24 Justin Gammella Yeah.

37:25 Luke F. Walton in a lot of ways and so you need to like you can't just drop the whole album because you're only allowed to pitch one song when you're not

37:33 Justin Gammella you Well, know one right. Exactly. of the top five artists in the world oh Yeah, no. And it's tougher and tougher with Spotify. Spotify is being

37:39 Justin Gammella yeah taken over more and more by the major labels and stuff.

37:41 Luke F. Walton totally no this is that's probably a good time let's let's uh let's talk a little bit about that i'd love to know more about your perspective i know that i mean you i say you have a you have a spotify um songwriter page profs not not many people have those that's really cool um but yeah i mean i i love a good honest perspective at what it looks like out there i mean obviously spotify has really helped me

38:00 Justin Gammella me build my career but also you know i've Yeah. had to spend a lot you So, know yeah

38:04 Justin Gammella so I go, you know, Spotify, when I say Spotify, I'll, I'll, we can talk even replace it with all DSPs, but

38:11 Justin Gammella sounds good Spotify zoom being the biggest out one. a little bit yeah Yeah. the ecosystem yeah

38:14 Justin Gammella The ecosystem of it. Right. So I, I always go back and forth with Spotify. Where when I was in a band Spotify was really good to me. We're unsigned this was in 2014 ish and Spotify was really invested in and

38:28 Justin Gammella Yes. being the DSP that broke new artists Apple music wasn't doing that YouTube wasn't doing that Spotify was doing that and that's how they got

38:37 Justin Gammella Yep. To be the biggest player in the market in my opinion And when you're an independent artist and you own your masters again for listeners, there's the master side of of the song and then there's the publishing side publishing is more the songwriting master is like that specific recording of the song the simplest version of that and

38:55 Justin Gammella Very good. when you own your masters like you actually make good money on spotify you know it comes out to around four thousand dollars per million streams it fluctuates depending on whatever and how spotify pays out as they uh they pay out 70 of their revenue to royalty owners and that's both master owners and publishing owners and that's split even further i think now it's like seven to two in favor of the master gets seven and the publishers get

39:20 Justin Gammella get two right so Yep. it's wholly Yep. imbalanced um and Yep. uh so yeah labels are making good money you know they're they're all making record profits

39:32 Justin Gammella uh big one spotify just had a record-breaking year and the people who are really suffering are songwriters and like i said that seven to two split is split even further now because most songwriters especially we're talking about like major label like people who are making most of the money as songwriters um right you know they're splitting that with their publishers usually and then on top of that very few songs have only one songwriter on it

39:58 Justin Gammella Mm hmm. So now you're splitting that between anywhere from two to three, four, five. Sometimes these crazy, you know, Beyonce songs have like 10,

40:06 Justin Gammella Yeah. 12 writers on it. Yeah. And I'm not criticizing that. How she does things is really cool and unique

40:12 Justin Gammella Totally. and that's... Yeah, I had Alex Delicata on and Yeah, he was talking yeah.

40:15 Justin Gammella about one of his songs and it was yeah, it was it was like a

40:20 Luke F. Walton reworked with the team there's a new bridge now new form like he was like it was cool they did change so much and they made it their own he's like

40:26 Justin Gammella beyonce

40:26 Luke F. Walton they get their

40:27 Justin Gammella is

40:27 Luke F. Walton credit

40:27 Justin Gammella the is

40:27 Luke F. Walton yeah

40:27 Justin Gammella the greatest anr of all time that's what she does and that's what she does really well she's like that's sick what if we do you know that's what she's good at um so yeah so songwriters are really making like almost no money you know you see songwriters who have had like song like a billion streams and it's like yeah i made like you know thirty thousand dollars from that and you're like what like

40:47 Luke F. Walton Right.

40:47 Justin Gammella that's it um that's supposed to be like your retirement money like right when and

40:51 Justin Gammella you have that level of a hit right and songwriters are so obsessed with getting radio cuts because radio still plays pays really well that's where you know you can have a big song on radio and you make a lot of money from that but spotify and this is the problem and you know i don't like to put all the blame on spotify because how their business model is set up i don't think It's wrong.

41:14 Justin Gammella I think them paying out 70% to royalty owners and them keeping 30% seems fair to me. The problem is in the split in those royalty rates. In my opinion, it should be split 50-50 master and publishing.

41:30 Justin Gammella Mm-hmm. That's never going to happen. Maybe one day, but the reason why we're not able to basically negotiate with Spotify.

41:41 Justin Gammella And all this is because of this horrible law that started in the early 1900s based off music, like piano player sheets, and

41:51 Justin Gammella Okay. Yeah. then evolved in the 80s under the Reagan administration, which is not to get too political, that guy has created so many problems. And essentially, songwriters are not able to directly negotiate. With,

42:07 Justin Gammella Yes. Yeah. the DSPs, we, there's a copyright royalty board, these three judges, and they set the rates.

42:13 Justin Gammella And every five years, we have to basically go and, and I say we songwriter advocacy groups, like I'm part of Sona, songwriters of North America, everyone should join that, go and advocate for songwriters and say like, hey, we think it should be this much and the judges look and they're like, okay, and they either approve it or disapprove it. And that's how we decide these royalty rates and

42:37 Justin Gammella Yes. uh you know they're astonishingly low because spotify basically because of how the laws are we don't they don't have to ask us for permission they can just like do it and and worry about it later i'm oversimplifying this but now the fight is we're trying to

42:55 Justin Gammella continually get this you know push this copyright royalty board to raise the rates the other fight that we're trying to do is try and reclassify songwriters um so we can uh collectively bargain and negotiate similar to how actors and screenwriters and everyone else does uh because i get that question all the time why don't you guys just unionize and legally

43:19 Justin Gammella It's questionable, but legally we can't. The simplest form of that is that if songwriters all get together, it could be seen as price fixing, which is a monopolistic action and we're not able to do it.

43:31 Justin Gammella Mm-hmm. In my opinion, it's a very stupid way to interpret the law, but that is how the law is. So you have multiple organizations trying to lobby Congress currently to change. how songwriters are classified uber writers had the same problem and

43:47 Justin Gammella Hmm. we were actually really hoping uber was going to win and i'm sorry not uber the uber drivers were going to win and they didn't um because that would have like we could have like leaned on that interpretation

43:59 Justin Gammella Interesting. of the law a Yeah. little bit Yeah. yeah so you know it's all around like independent contractors and how we're able to work and not work uh producers have the same problem it's why we can't really unionize either and

44:12 Justin Gammella Yes. be like hey like we we have set rates Yes. Right. um as opposed to negotiating every single time

44:18 Justin Gammella Yeah. Right. Like in the, in a way that, yeah, if you hire a cinematographer or a grip or whatever, name the name, the thing,

44:26 Justin Gammella right like film they set have minimums is there like, that are just like this is the minimum and then like if you could negotiate more wonderful but like these are the industry standard and that's you know that's what i was saying when i said way earlier way earlier about like this race to the bottom especially

44:37 Justin Gammella Hmm. in sync it's been this constant race to the bottom because you Yes. know we always need money we're always so hungry and they just like keep like paying less and less and less and less and it's always someone being like well i'll do it for that much you

44:49 Justin Gammella Right. Right. know um Totally. yeah Yeah. so that's the importance of organization and trying to form a union and you know it's a hard it's a hard long battle people want instant results, but that's not how it's going to work, unfortunately.

45:04 Justin Gammella Yeah, for sure. The interesting thing that I found is, you know, I've been doing this for a while now, almost 10 year professional career. And the rates that I was getting paid to do sync demos back then are the same that I get paid now. roughly like 250 300 bucks a demo and then you you get that you can get the um payout like if you actually land the sink but

45:29 Justin Gammella yeah yeah see the demo fees have pretty much been the same thing over the course of like eight years yeah

45:36 Justin Gammella i've seen them go down yeah i'm not in it as much but when i was doing it i remember what the rates were and i have a buddy who mostly does sync and he'll sometimes send me like things be like does this good i'm like That was like three times as much

45:48 Justin Gammella Right. what I was doing I guess now at this point it was like 13 14 years ago like almost 13 years ago when I was doing it

45:54 Justin Gammella But what I'm saying is like, Yeah, think about all the inflation during I that know

45:56 Justin Gammella time. that's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's Yeah, like you're it's still less it's yeah, exactly. Or like

46:00 Justin Gammella Yeah, the $4,000 per million stream figure that right is, that's been that way for a while. You know what I mean?

46:09 Justin Gammella Yeah So it feels like the whole world has gotten more expensive.

46:14 Luke F. Walton more expensive but then yeah the songwriter is either gone down or stayed flat which

46:17 Justin Gammella Yeah.

46:17 Luke F. Walton is actually

46:18 Justin Gammella I mean,

46:18 Luke F. Walton really annoying

46:18 Justin Gammella so songwriters did actually

46:20 Luke F. Walton yeah

46:20 Justin Gammella get a raise recently.

46:21 Luke F. Walton cool i

46:22 Justin Gammella Not a lot of

46:22 Luke F. Walton did

46:22 Justin Gammella people know

46:22 Luke F. Walton hear about about that i did hear about it

46:23 Justin Gammella yeah that.

46:24 Luke F. Walton uh

46:24 Justin Gammella So 5, I forget, 2020-ish, we got the judges to raise the rate and it was frozen because Amazon and Spotify and a couple other people were basically fighting it being like, hey, we want to appeal this and then it took.

46:53 Justin Gammella possibly like two months ago.

46:55 Luke F. Walton Cool.

46:55 Justin Gammella So you actually should start seeing

46:57 Luke F. Walton Great.

46:57 Justin Gammella on your publishing statements.

46:58 Luke F. Walton Cool.

47:00 Justin Gammella And from your publishers or if yourself published um you can look at your own statements there uh it's like a 40 increase we got

47:09 Luke F. Walton in Amazing.

47:09 Justin Gammella royalties

47:10 Luke F. Walton Amazing.

47:10 Justin Gammella um

47:10 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

47:11 Justin Gammella and and you'll see that i think it's from the time period from like 2017 2018 to like 2022 2023 so it's actually backlogging it's not future it's

47:19 Luke F. Walton That's backlogging awesome.

47:20 Justin Gammella and future now the problem again is that spotify this is where i'm like kind of screw spotify is i don't know it's not talked enough enough Uh, enough yet, but, um, they changed, they introduced audiobooks recently

47:35 Luke F. Walton Yes.

47:36 Justin Gammella and They basically automatically signed everyone up for the Spotify premium that includes audiobooks.

47:42 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

47:42 Justin Gammella And now Spotify is arguing that like, oh, well, we've made this new thing, we have to pay for these audiobooks. So actually, we're not going to pay the rate that you guys made us pay moving forward.

47:55 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

47:55 Justin Gammella So now the NMPA, which is the National Music Publishers Association, and Sona were both taking Spotify to court again.

48:04 Justin Gammella Hmm. to basically say no you can't do that you also consumers didn't get to choose that option you forced them into it so spotify's whole game is that um they forced everyone to go to this option and they're like well people can opt out if

48:21 Justin Gammella I they don't opted want right out. this right and like we know this um and uh like people can opt out if they want to but it's like no one's going to take the time to do that like

48:30 Luke F. Walton I know.

48:30 Justin Gammella If the price didn't change... Who's going to remember to do it? And that's the problem. And there's other laws in the book that we're trying to use to fight that back. So hopefully we'll

48:43 Luke F. Walton Yes. Yes.

48:44 Justin Gammella win this, but it's

48:44 Luke F. Walton Totally.

48:45 Justin Gammella going to be a long process as all legal battles are.

48:47 Luke F. Walton Right. And as an appeal to the listener, I don't want any of this to sound like we're trying to like come after more of people's money. What I'm really trying to say is I want the money to go to the creators more. Like. Like, I think YouTube is a very good example of something that started from a... pretty illicit place where

49:08 Justin Gammella Mm

49:08 Luke F. Walton it was-hmm. just taking content pretending like oh they uploaded it i didn't upload it not really policing it and that's kind of how they grew into be that dominant player and then they start policing but it's the use of creators and people that work to make the things that you love that entertain you um not being able to yeah save for retirement or pay for cancer treatment or do any of the things that normal

49:32 Luke F. Walton normal people have to do and they force it forces you as an end user as a consumer to have less entertainment and then also to not have the dollars that you are spending go to the people that are creating but instead it goes to this tech company and they're

49:46 Justin Gammella Yeah, I mean,

49:46 Luke F. Walton going to I take

49:47 Justin Gammella have a hot

49:47 Luke F. Walton over

49:47 Justin Gammella take

49:47 Luke F. Walton the world

49:47 Justin Gammella on this that

49:48 Luke F. Walton yeah

49:48 Justin Gammella most people, I mean, songwriters agree with me, but most regular humans don't, is that the fact that Spotify is what, 10, 15 bucks a month, depending on what you get, is ridiculous.

49:59 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

49:59 Justin Gammella um you

50:00 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

50:00 Justin Gammella know if i told someone 25 years ago it's like hey for 10 a month you can get all the music ever made when we were going to record stores and buying cds for 18 a pop you know so like it started with napster where we devalued music and people thought that like music is free and then itunes came and everyone was like songs are a dollar and then spotify came and it was like songs are free

50:25 Justin Gammella with ads or you can pay 10 15 bucks a month and to me that

50:30 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

50:31 Justin Gammella is that that's the biggest problem the fact that we as a society devalued music so so so so much i like i'm a firm believer i think we face a lot of problems with songwriters if we make that price like 20 25 a month i know that's that's a that would turn a lot of people off but you know i tell people like how many streaming services are you paying for for

50:56 Luke F. Walton yeah

50:56 Justin Gammella like 10 bucks a month and like you have limited options like it's not even doesn't even everything because

51:01 Luke F. Walton that that's a good point yeah that's

51:02 Justin Gammella know and

51:03 Luke F. Walton a good point yeah if you're paying 20 bucks yeah for netflix you're only getting netflix stuff you're not getting everything every movie that's ever existed it's like what would you pay for that yeah

51:11 Justin Gammella you right you get every song ever made mostly 99.99999% of songs so you know i i i i really truly truly truly believe that

51:20 Luke F. Walton Mm

51:21 Justin Gammella and

51:21 Luke F. Walton -hmm,

51:21 Justin Gammella again it's going to take a lot of actions probably from congress to

51:25 Luke F. Walton mm-hmm,

51:25 Justin Gammella be like all right well you you want uh all the music that remains got to be this much in order to pay these rates or you want it to be free it's going to be like radio where every three songs every three four songs there's a commercial

51:38 Luke F. Walton mm-hmm.

51:38 Justin Gammella like that's that's the only way and it's it's kind of what happened um with cable people don't know this but like years ago when the cable was introduced

51:46 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

51:46 Justin Gammella that it was like basically and i might be getting a couple facts wrong so i apologize if i am um but it was a really low price and then the screenwriters and actors were like what the hell guys like we're not getting paid for any of this and because they had unions they were able to basically force them to like pay them the rates and then the price of cable shot up and they were basically like well guys it's the actors like what are you gonna do and everyone just did it like i'm fine with person this is i know it's like not everyone believes this but i'm

52:16 Justin Gammella I'm fine being the bad guy, as

52:18 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

52:19 Justin Gammella in if Spotify and Apple Music and everyone want to be like, the songwriters are complaining that we got to pay them, we have to raise the prices. You want to blame us? Sure, fine, I don't care.

52:29 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

52:29 Justin Gammella I really, I don't care. But you have to force consumers to do it or else it's never going to happen. You have to force them to either accept more advertisements or accept a higher price because consumers have just chosen to devalue music over the last 25 years. And that's just the truth, the hard truth that they don't want to hear.

52:47 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd be interested too, to see what the appetite would be, like how many people would stop, but that still might be enough to make up for that. And it's interesting to consider, yeah, we were paying, yeah, 18 bucks, 18.85 or whatever, 95 for a CD.

53:05 Justin Gammella Yeah,

53:06 Luke F. Walton And

53:06 Justin Gammella and this

53:06 Luke F. Walton then think

53:06 Justin Gammella was this

53:06 Luke F. Walton about,

53:06 Justin Gammella this

53:07 Luke F. Walton exactly,

53:07 Justin Gammella was before inflation. That's what I'm saying like that's

53:08 Luke F. Walton exactly.

53:09 Justin Gammella like like 25 30 bucks

53:10 Luke F. Walton Right.

53:10 Justin Gammella now

53:10 Luke F. Walton Totally. Totally.

53:11 Justin Gammella You

53:11 Luke F. Walton For one know CD.

53:12 Justin Gammella right

53:12 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

53:13 Justin Gammella and

53:13 Luke F. Walton i bet

53:14 Justin Gammella i

53:14 Luke F. Walton for

53:14 Justin Gammella get that

53:14 Luke F. Walton all

53:14 Justin Gammella it's

53:14 Luke F. Walton cities

53:14 Justin Gammella something right and i understand that it's something physical that's something that you get to keep but it's like we also knew at that point too where it's like we had you know records and the tapes and the cds everything was eventually going to get phased out we knew it was eventually going to get phased out so like i think that argument of like well it's something physical you get to keep it's like come on you knew it wasn't going to be forever like get out

53:31 Luke F. Walton yeah

53:31 Justin Gammella of here yeah right

53:32 Luke F. Walton you bought you bought the abbey road like 14 times come on like you got the you got the the cassette version the vinyl the cd either yeah

53:40 Justin Gammella And so, you know, like I love, I understand like the push for models of like people wanting to like make sure the money goes to the artist that they listen to more. Like I think those models are great. That makes sense.

53:50 Luke F. Walton i agree i agree

53:52 Justin Gammella You know, but. Yeah, so I don't know. That's why it's like I'm just like a firm believer that sometimes just got to force people to like, eat their vegetables.

54:01 Luke F. Walton Mm hmm.

54:01 Justin Gammella And

54:01 Luke F. Walton I

54:01 Justin Gammella yeah,

54:01 Luke F. Walton understand that. I understand

54:03 Justin Gammella yeah,

54:03 Luke F. Walton that. And then hopefully transparency, too, because, yeah, I would love to verify I can trust, but I'd like to verify

54:08 Justin Gammella right.

54:08 Luke F. Walton the the actual validity of you get this much attention, you get this much money rather than thumbs being on all sorts of scales, which.

54:18 Justin Gammella Yeah. I mean, but two, it's like, you know, it's a little socialistic, but it's like how you know actors and screenwriters are able to to eat and i keep comparing us to them because

54:27 Luke F. Walton it's

54:28 Justin Gammella if a good they're

54:28 Luke F. Walton comparison because they're the closest analog

54:30 Justin Gammella you

54:30 Luke F. Walton of decentralized but

54:31 Justin Gammella know

54:32 Luke F. Walton centralized creatives that make good livable wages yet

54:35 Justin Gammella right it's like you you make things expensive so all the people at the bottom can eat too and that's the kind of like system i kind of want to believe in where it's like you know like songwriters that have like i'm not saying if you're an artist where you have a couple thousand streams that you should be like making a good living off of that it's like no you shouldn't be like

54:54 Luke F. Walton I

54:54 Justin Gammella that's

54:54 Luke F. Walton don't

54:54 Justin Gammella you

54:55 Luke F. Walton think anybody,

54:55 Justin Gammella know right

54:55 Luke F. Walton yeah,

54:55 Justin Gammella right i mean there are some people believe me there are some people be like oh i should be making good money off They that but they

55:00 Luke F. Walton should still see something though.

55:01 Justin Gammella should just see something yeah but it's like you know i'm talking about like the songwriters who were legitimately successful in

55:07 Luke F. Walton Yes,

55:07 Justin Gammella the

55:07 Luke F. Walton yes.

55:07 Justin Gammella sense where it's like they have big songs millions upon millions of streams if not they're not

55:12 Luke F. Walton Yes.

55:12 Justin Gammella billions and they are like solidly lower middle class and

55:16 Luke F. Walton Right.

55:17 Justin Gammella and

55:17 Luke F. Walton Totally.

55:17 Justin Gammella a lot of them are struggling struggling

55:19 Luke F. Walton Yes.

55:19 Justin Gammella you

55:20 Luke F. Walton Yes.

55:20 Justin Gammella know and like a lot of them i don't plenty of people who have like huge hits they have like a part-time job still you

55:24 Luke F. Walton Totally. Of course.

55:25 Justin Gammella know that to me is the crazy part and that's what i'm that as a songwriter advocate

55:30 Justin Gammella and and it's what i'm always very blunt about is what i'm striving to fix because

55:34 Luke F. Walton Yep.

55:34 Justin Gammella it wasn't like this you talk to songwriters 25 years ago and it's like oh you get a cut on like an album you know for a moderately successful pop artist like you were you were living you were making good money you know

55:46 Luke F. Walton Right.

55:47 Justin Gammella Yeah.

55:47 Luke F. Walton And then you can take that money though, and this is how it ends up helping the consumer of music, the fans, you take that money, now you can buy that outboard gear. Now you can like invest in your career, invest in growth, fly out to that session in Paris or whatever with this cool emerging artist and say, I'm going to take this one on. Like you have those resources that now you can deploy to make art better.

56:10 Justin Gammella exactly yeah i think like listen i i think most producers and songwriters would agree with me that like i started making such better songs when i was financially comfortable when

56:17 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah,

56:17 Justin Gammella i wasn't

56:17 Luke F. Walton yeah.

56:18 Justin Gammella as always as worried about money is when i was making in my opinion better music you know like the first couple songs that made me money were like these like whatever edm top lines that i did where i was just like writing over edm tracks and like sending over top lines and like they made money you know i'm very

56:36 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

56:36 Justin Gammella so proud of some of them not all of them but then once i had like some money in my pocket and i was like oh okay like i can like relax and not like be like i have to write a hit every day it's like that's when i wrote like some of like my i don't know like my most well-received songs like artist songs that are like the deep cuts that fans love you know like things like that where it's like i didn't always have the courage to do that and now i'm always down to do that kind of stuff

57:01 Luke F. Walton Yeah, that's a really powerful message.

57:03 Justin Gammella Yeah, yeah.

57:04 Luke F. Walton On that note, I have a final question that I like to ask every guest. So the show is called Love Music More. The segment is called Love Music Why? And it's just a moment to talk about why do you still have that passion for music? Why do you still feel that rush when you write a new song or when you collectively get together with a group and you're all in sync creating together? What is it about music?

57:29 Luke F. Walton that makes you love it so much.

57:32 Justin Gammella You know, it's always pulling me. No matter what I'm doing in life, you know, I mentioned earlier that I was working a regular job and, you know, I love my job, but music always kept pulling me. I never stopped doing it. And even now, you know, there's times when...

57:55 Justin Gammella take a week two or three off um you know to spend time with my family or go on vacation and those are times when i get like the best ideas or just like be walking and something will pop my head i'll be like ah crap and i have to take out my phone and take out my voice memo and record it and work on it later but i think that's what it is it's something that's so natural in me

58:22 Justin Gammella that it's like this magnet that just like is always going to pull me towards it no matter what i do even if i become unsuccessful and i have to start working a regular job i'm still always going to do music because it's i don't think it's something that's ever going to turn off and you know the fact that the fact that i get to do this for for a living and and uh you know i my one joke

58:48 Justin Gammella Is that my job as I sit around and fuck around all day?

58:51 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

58:52 Justin Gammella That's my job. I just mess around and see what happens and I throw a bunch of paint at the wall and try and find beauty in it. And, you know, the fact that that's, I don't know what I assume is my calling is incredible. So, you know, I don't think I have a choice but to do music. That

59:12 Luke F. Walton that's

59:12 Justin Gammella makes sense.

59:13 Luke F. Walton it does it very much does and yeah when you deny that choice it just gets louder and louder just

59:19 Justin Gammella Oh,

59:20 Luke F. Walton yeah

59:20 Justin Gammella yeah. Yeah, the second like if I'm away from music, it just like I start getting more and more ideas, you know, so it's that's why I also forced myself to take breaks.

59:27 Luke F. Walton totally

59:27 Justin Gammella It's

59:27 Luke F. Walton no

59:27 Justin Gammella good.

59:28 Luke F. Walton i agree i agree i am the exact same way where yeah the longer vacation or just you haven't touched a guitar for a little while or whatever it's just like you get that feeling but it's it's it's good too you don't want to and you don't want to silence it you want to lean into it but it's good to stoke that that like a distance makes the heart grow fonder kind of thing for

59:48 Justin Gammella yes

59:48 Luke F. Walton this one

59:49 Justin Gammella yes and also the exact opposite of it where if you if you're doing music and it feels gross just like stop walk away

59:56 Luke F. Walton totally totally walk agree

59:57 Justin Gammella away like i i it took me so long to allow myself to do that where i'll be producing something and i'll be like i am not enjoying this and

60:06 Luke F. Walton Yes.

60:06 Justin Gammella like i'm i allow myself just like walk away from it try again tomorrow like that's okay you know it

60:12 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

60:12 Justin Gammella happens but it goes both ways yep

60:14 Luke F. Walton Totally. Yeah. No, it's like the term get the ick. Like sometimes they get the ick and

60:21 Justin Gammella right

60:21 Luke F. Walton I just gotta,

60:21 Justin Gammella yeah yeah

60:22 Luke F. Walton yeah.

60:22 Justin Gammella gotta walk away from it's okay go play a video game go watch some tv go watch a movie like you know Who cares it's

60:30 Luke F. Walton Totally. That's great advice.

60:31 Justin Gammella yeah,

60:32 Luke F. Walton And yes, if you have a little bit of financial flexibility, it's a lot easier to be able to be like, this isn't working.

60:39 Justin Gammella yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean there's times when it's like you know i'll set up myself to have like some production days um

60:45 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

60:45 Justin Gammella to work on stuff um especially if i'm working on an album and

60:49 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

60:49 Justin Gammella i'll sit and i'll just be like man i i didn't do anything good yesterday i'm not doing anything good today and i was just like i won't work for two days i'll like go in the house and like start like being creative in the kitchen or being creative you know like i have a garden out here like start doing things in the garden you know just allowing myself to like step away and that's that's been

61:11 Justin Gammella That's great advice that

61:12 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

61:12 Justin Gammella like, if I, you know, allowing yourself to just like walk away and relax and not worry about it. I understand sometimes there's deadlines that

61:21 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

61:21 Justin Gammella you have to do. And, you know, I've done plenty of those and I've gotten great work like that sometimes.

61:27 Luke F. Walton Yes.

61:27 Justin Gammella But, you know, working like that all the time is, it ain't healthy.

61:32 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Agreed. And yeah, it's listening to that body, listening to that muse.

61:37 Justin Gammella Yeah,

61:37 Luke F. Walton And on that,

61:38 Justin Gammella yeah.

61:38 Luke F. Walton really, really great advice, Justin. It was a pleasure, pleasure talking. Where can people connect? I'd love for them to check out your podcast as well. Producer points,

61:46 Justin Gammella Yeah,

61:47 Luke F. Walton awesome, awesome content.

61:48 Justin Gammella producer points. You can listen to it everywhere podcasts are available. You know, follow us on the Instagram or the TikTok. We're on YouTube as well. Yeah, take a listen if you get. It's definitely a nerdy producer podcast, but I think it's for all music lovers. music lovers as well.

62:03 Luke F. Walton Love that. I think we have a fair share of nerdy producer listeners as well, so

62:08 Justin Gammella Good.

62:08 Luke F. Walton maybe

62:08 Justin Gammella That's what we want.

62:09 Luke F. Walton some overlap.

62:10 Justin Gammella That's what we want.

62:11 Luke F. Walton Awesome, Justin. Well, I hope you have a great rest of your week and

62:13 Justin Gammella Yeah, yeah.

62:14 Luke F. Walton it's such a pleasure connecting.

62:15 Justin Gammella Same, man. Thanks.