An Interview with Ginger Winn

0:46 Luke F. Walton Happy New Year, everybody. Scoobert Doobert here. Welcome back to Love Music More. This is a great episode with David Barron and Ginger Wynn. They work together on Ginger's debut record, Stop Motion, which released June 7th, but Ginger's been working on music her entire life. Really awesome story about how she got to where she's gotten.

1:04 Luke F. Walton And also she's in that interesting tier too that I find really relatable and really exciting of that emerging artist who's out on the road, who's playing shows, who has records.

1:14 Luke F. Walton who is super super capable and on that cusp of breaking and it's like that liminal space in between the indie and like the undiscovered and the discovered i love that area because like partially selfishly because i'm living in that too but i also think it's so instructive what is it like to make music today what is it like to try and make it and not just be like a legacy act who came up in a completely different era or like a pre-internet era or a nap

1:42 Luke F. Walton Napster era like even even where like Spotify's gone this is just such a different time and so talking to Ginger it was really refreshing and really interesting to hear you know what is her take and then also on the other side having David be part of this conversation you have that heavy hitter that long-term industry presence somebody that came up with Lenny Kravitz you know how cool has also worked with lumineers Megan Trainor Shawn Mendes just an absolute

2:07 Luke F. Walton multi-instrumentalist producer engineer record maker you know it was a great great conversation and I think it categorizes where music is in the history you know it was partially David I think he was in Woodstock when we were having this conversation that's where his studio is um it puts it all into perspective and I think that's really really cool and what a great way to kick off 2025 before we do I'd like to introduce our title sponsor DistroKid

2:33 Luke F. Walton District Kid makes music distribution fun and easy. With unlimited uploads and artists get to keep 100% of royalties and earnings, I use it, it is awesome, and yes, I push those limits on how unlimited it can get. You can also get 30% off with our discount. You can help support the show, support your career at DistroKid.com slash VIP slash Love Music More to get started.

2:58 Luke F. Walton A million plus, that was a mouthful, a million plus artists rely on DistroKid to get their music onto Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, TikTok, Tidal, Instagram, and all the major streaming services. So yeah, get your music on there today. Join me, join me on DistroKid, DistroKid.com slash VIP slash love music more. Enjoy the episode. It's good, everybody. Welcome back to Love Music More.

3:27 Luke F. Walton I am Scoobert Doobert, and I am joined with Ginger Wynn and David Barron. Welcome to the pod, both of you.

3:33 David Baron and Ginger Winn Thank you. Okay, yeah, thanks for having us.

3:36 Luke F. Walton It's so rare for me to have multiple people kind of at the same time. So I'm really excited about that. So David, you and Ginger were working on Ginger's recording, right? And Ginger, maybe you could tell us a little bit about kind of like how the two of you connected.

3:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn So we connected via my co-writer.

3:51 Luke F. Walton Cool.

3:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn He randomly, his name's Matthew, he randomly reached out to David back in 2023, yeah, last year. And David randomly responded because it was a crazy. email apparently i haven't read it i'm really curious what it says

4:04 Luke F. Walton we gotta we gotta unleash that on the pod live yeah

4:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah bts it's pretty random how me and david know each other honestly i'm sure the story will come out as we continue talking but it's very random yes

4:15 Luke F. Walton i love that that's that's how this industry and just music in general tends to work isn't it

4:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn for me yeah

4:23 Luke F. Walton yeah right and then uh david really incredible uh list of people that you've worked worked with grammy award-winning lumineers you've got one of my personal favorites the game of thrones you had nightshade on there i think that's super cool um just just excited to have you on the pod brother and it's gonna be great talking about production mixing mastering with you it's gonna be a pleasure

4:45 David Baron and Ginger Winn Absolutely. No, I love that. And it's funny because Matthew, when he reached out to me, he had fallen in love with Lumineers Brightside, which we did in my studio during COVID. You know, I get a lot of random DMs and texts and stuff like that. But he was like, I live in this town and he named a town that's very obscure and really tiny and I happened to be in the town right when he emailed me. And

5:05 David Baron and Ginger Winn Wow. so I responded. I was like, wow, that's weird. I'm in this town. I've never been in this town before. So that's actually how we met. It's sort of just chance.

5:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn I love that. And also, Yeah. I love, David, you've worked with Lenny Kravitz as well. Like, talk about I just love, you know, the breadth of audio career. That is just such a cool thing.

5:23 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I mean, I worked with Lenny a ton. I Cool. shared a studio with Lenny for a long time.

5:27 David Baron and Ginger Winn Awesome. But, you know, I met him a long time ago. And we could talk about the sort of probably more in depth. But basically, you know, I was doing mostly commercial music, television music,

5:38 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yep. advertising music, and I was working in a studio and one day Lenny came in because he was in another room in the studio. He liked the weird music I was making and he told me he wanted to make a space funk record.

5:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes. And I thought he was totally... you know making it up and he's like yeah let's do a space funk record and it's long that means this is 24 years ago probably i was young and i was just like he was already very famous he's probably been famous for 15 years or whatever six months later his manager called me and we actually started working together we became friends and and then we ended up partnering in the studio as you probably know from my biography

6:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes, yes. And then Ginger, I see that you just got off the road with... with Gypsy Kings, which is absolutely awesome. How was that? How was that kind of tour experience?

6:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn I how do you put it into words I mean it was it was my first time west of Nashville so everything was new my first tour my first time west of Nashville my first time playing in front of more than like you know 200 people so it all just sort of felt like a hazy dream honestly I was actually in San Diego for the tour so it's funny that I know what it's sort of like now But yeah,

6:45 David Baron and Ginger Winn the Gypsy Kings were so fantastic and even the way that I got on that tour is so random It was just someone I was working with happened to know someone that was managing the Gypsy Kings tour, I think and they happen to throw me out there as an option and they happen to say yes so

6:59 David Baron and Ginger Winn Cool. it's like I just I feel so blessed like I can't even believe that it really happened and I met so many amazing people out there as well especially I got to man all the merch tables myself for

7:10 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes. a lot of the shows and so I got to personally meet a lot of people I got to experience people from different states and there was a difference from state to state

7:20 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. um Yeah but yeah it was so great it was no complaints it was the best experience of my life honestly

7:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn That's amazing. And so your background, you were born and raised in South Carolina, which you're currently in South Carolina as well, right?

7:35 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, Effingham particularly. Very cool. So that's so exciting. Your first journey west and having to deal with San Diegan weirdos like myself. That's pretty sweet. And

7:47 David Baron and Ginger Winn Northwest. you love I love the Northwest. That would be really cool. the Northwest? Cool,

7:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. cool. And that's where and then David, you're up in the northeast in Woodstock? currently?

7:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I'm right outside of Woodstock, about like 15 minutes from the center of Woodstock in a town called Boyceville.

8:01 David Baron and Ginger Winn Incidentally, the town that Jimi Hendrix lived in when he played Woodstock. So I'm about, I'm in walking distance to Hendrix's old house, but it's the Woodstock area.

8:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn Cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. Ginger, growing up in South Carolina, how did that influence kind of your musical perspective and your trajectory?

8:17 David Baron and Ginger Winn I think that the reason I stuck with music is because I lived in South Carolina and I and I had no friends and so therefore

8:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn That was I always a had tough time. no life and then I just did music all the time I really did music all the time as a kid I dropped out of high school at 16 to do music that's the only reason I dropped out and I also hated the school and the food lunches and all that stuff

8:39 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes, but yes. the reason was to do music it was really all I had in my life and from birth to you know 21 I think I just recorded in studios you

8:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn Nice. know well I didn't start recording at birth but when I was I think 12 I actually started recording in a studio and it's sort of like all the strangest of my childhood with having no friends living on a farm and traveling around the south and everything it all just sort of led to a lot of strange qualities and

9:09 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I it definitely helps me in music like if I grew up in New York City I think I would just have too many distractions and I would probably have too many friends and I would have no time to do music so

9:19 David Baron and Ginger Winn hear you. I hear you. it's all the weirdness led to something really great I guess

9:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. No, I mean, I understand at least a little bit of that. I graduated early from high school too, so I could make music. It is that weird artist kind of. feeling of you're

9:35 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. not doing what you're supposed to be doing and so you got to go like get to what you're supposed to be doing as quickly as possible

9:41 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. And you're just really motivated because you're really passionate about it and you don't have any real backup plans. So it kind of has to work.

9:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah yeah totally So that's a real good fire under your bum. And yeah, it's worked out so far. So who knows where it'll take me.

9:58 David Baron and Ginger Winn but i i love the perspective though because i think some people would hear like oh god like you know connected with david got on this big tour and also it's like hey this is not that's not the beginning of the journey the journey began way back when I was 12 on the farm like grinding

10:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn Hmm. every day to become a great musician that's what I think a lot of people miss out is like yeah the opportunities they come they can come fast they can be serendipitous but everything that leads towards that can be deep just like you were saying David before you were meeting Lenny you know grinding on commercial work I know what that's like

10:30 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean, the story usually starts really early on, and actually it's interesting. interesting ginger like one of the most common things i meet with young songwriters who are really great is that they have military parents and they have no friends growing up it's

10:42 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. like it's like one of the most common stories it makes total sense because then you like immerse yourself into something like i have a friend that all she did was write songs in germany and all their parents were all over the world because her dad was military and she got obsessed with johnny cash and bob dylan which is

11:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn Also weird. It's like she wasn't around kids and she discovered that music and I think it can make you very special being a little weird.

11:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn you're definitely different i guess it makes you stand out more Mm-hmm. And I think it can give you a different perspective about what to write about and a different perspective on the human experience and I think all of those things. Yeah, learning the songwriting skills is one thing, but developing as a person is a very different thing.

11:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn And a lot of people can learn the skills or they can learn Pro Tools or whatever, but developing taste as a producer, as a mix engineer, or developing, you know, personal sense of self and voice as an artist are very, very different things than the functional. music theory and the honestly that stuff's the easy stuff i think

11:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn Well, that's the stuff where it's like a pretty clear path how to learn it. The other stuff like, I mean, I always think you can't become a great.

11:52 David Baron and Ginger Winn mixer or producer or artist or even a musician unless you have a lot of life experience so you have to give yourself the chance to have those experiences you know heartache makes some of the best records ever made you know or people write these insane songs right after they have a baby you know it's like things that are very human seem to really inspire tremendous music you know and including isolation

12:18 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. that's a good point. That's actually exactly what happened to me. It's like you described my last two years, David.

12:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn Hmm. Like You I went had a baby, to Cape joined Town. the military. No, I'm just kidding.

12:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn Not quite. I went to Cape Town and I had a lot of experiences for the first time because I was under my mom's wing for most of my life, you know, writing song, being very militant, making an album a year for almost 10 years of my life. It was very militant. And then I went to Cape Town and I was like freedom and I had a life, but I actually became really isolated because I didn't have a lot of.

12:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn a lot of friends there and so I I produced music as a freelancer and songwriter for two years and that really was like exponential growth like my whole life I kept growing and growing and then when I got to Cape Town I had those two years of nothing and no friends and nothing and I just worked for eight hours a day as a producer and songwriter

13:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn So that was a really rough stage of my life, but it really, really helped my music. Maybe not my mental health, but it really helped my music. I'm really grateful for it. It was almost like a college experience because I just did music for all day.

13:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah it's it's like you're uh you're hamburg like the beatles and like i think everybody needs everybody needs a moment of deep dive that yeah it might be a little bit of a dark place not advocating you know you got to take care of yourself got to take care of mental health anybody that's listening that's valuable you should shouldn't shouldn't sacrifice that but everybody's got everybody that i think is successful and interesting has got something something that's their hamburg their um that's

13:45 David Baron and Ginger Winn The interesting point about that, though, is like in Hamburg, it was. it was pretty small like the Beatles weren't exposed and one

13:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn Mm of the -hmm. things that's happened with our culture now is that people tend to get very overexposed during their development phase because they start putting songs on Spotify and they put songs on TikTok and while they're experimenting and they haven't really grown to be an artist all this stuff gets put out and the one thing that I thought was very interesting about you Ginger is you did all this work pretty much for for hire and so you really had like when I looked you up you had

14:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn nothing that I could find like you had done all your growth kind of like the Beatles did in Hamburg like behind the wall and so that when you emerge from the wall you're already developed just like a chrysalis like here's the butterfly as opposed to like here's my first song that I learned how to use a drum machine on here's my second song where I learned how to harmonize like I

14:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. mean I Yeah see that all the time because I hear a lot of young artists like you're very mysterious that was very mysterious to me I was like that's so cool everybody else I read like I mean I just talked to an 18 year old and she sent me 18 songs in a soundcloud link and I'm like Whoa, like you're putting out all this stuff.

14:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn I don't know. It's kind of interesting that people do that because you're in the public eye. Even if you don't think you're in the public eye, you really are.

14:57 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah i think that for most of my career i was writing with my mom and she was basically like my business partner as a child in the music industry because i didn't know what i was doing and

15:05 David Baron and Ginger Winn Right, she like Mozart. was she yeah Yeah. yeah and and she she's 65 and so like she didn't really know about soundcloud and like all the things that all the young people were doing so we would make an album a year and have like 12 songs on it usually and we would make cds

15:23 David Baron and Ginger Winn and play the cds in our car and we would sort of learn from that music and then like make the next album next year and so like i i did sort of what everyone does of like oh let's let's post a video like 10 years ago of me and my older sister playing guitar but it's like it's not really findable on youtube anymore because it's it's sort of like why have it up there if it's just bad i mean it's not that it's bad but

15:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn It might not be bad. It might just be like where you're less developed. like I mean the idea of becoming a developed musician and then coming out as a developed musician is rare these days and I think it's actually pretty valuable to have that time the Hamburg as as you referred to it have the time where you're really developing I mean I went to music school so I had a bunch of years where I didn't that's all I did you know I didn't put out any music all I did was try to figure out how to

16:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn not be bad I Yeah. Yeah. that's what it is you're trying to like hone your skills and you're trying to become better and that that way when you actually do finally emerge in the public eye you sort of have the toolkit to be able to do that and I think that's actually really important and that's a big change that's a big sea change in the past 10 years because it's so easy to release music

16:35 Luke F. Walton yeah that's a good

16:36 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah

16:36 Luke F. Walton point and

16:36 David Baron and Ginger Winn I

16:36 Luke F. Walton then yeah

16:37 David Baron and Ginger Winn was

16:37 Luke F. Walton but

16:37 David Baron and Ginger Winn never really ready to like you know do it the way that we're doing it now where it's all professional and it's almost like the branding the marketing like all that stuff I was just never really ready and so I guess I guess it is good that like I didn't just throw a bunch of stuff out and I don't know leave it out or whatever yeah

16:53 Luke F. Walton there there's a difference between that and just not doing it like do the work make the songs but then yeah where are you going to really hang your hat on and like go out to the world with

17:02 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's not necessarily bad to put things out before you're ready too because sometimes you can learn from the feedback and a

17:07 Luke F. Walton Yes,

17:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn lot of times of artists like say they get signed or discovered or song blows up they tend to scrub a lot of anything that they don't feel proud of anyway you know what i mean so like the minute they have a track that sort of goes viral you know the 15 other tracks that were there a few days ago might be gone you know what the funny thing is like i guess it's like everything else in music is like there's no one right way to do anything there's

17:27 Luke F. Walton True.

17:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn a lot of different right ways to do it

17:30 Luke F. Walton One thing I wanted to ask. To ask you about David, and this really jumped out in your biography, your father engineered three of my favorite live recordings of all time. Allman Brothers live at the Fillmore East, one thing that inspired me to work on guitar solos almost more than anything else.

17:46 Luke F. Walton B.B. King at Cook County Jail, arguably one of the vibiest, most electrifying recordings of all time. And then Mingus live at Carnegie Hall. Dang, so that's some heavy hitting engineering chops to be growing up around. What was that like? How did your father start working on music and then how did that influence you and the kind of way you conceptualized audio?

18:10 David Baron and Ginger Winn Interestingly enough, my dad, he was a bad kid and he was in trouble a lot. And then he joined the military. He was very bright and he tested really well. And he ended up going to the electronics program. Then he ended up getting an electronic engineering degree, which was very common back in those days.

18:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn After that, he ended up getting a job first for Bob Fine and Fine Recording and Bob Fine was a very famous recording engineer who did a lot of stuff early on. And then after that, a few years of being a maintenance guy there, a tech guy there.

18:38 David Baron and Ginger Winn He ended up working for Phil Ramone a day in our recording in the 60s. And Phil Ramone, as you know, is a mega producer. Did Billy Joe, did Paul Simon, everything else. He's the one who trained my dad. So Phil Ramone, arguably one of the best producers of the 70s, sort of like took a liking to my dad. My dad was very young. My dad borrowed some money.

18:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn He had his partner, Larry, in the 60s. My dad was in his 20s. I don't know how they gave him money. And if you ever met my dad, you probably wouldn't have given him money anyway. Anyway, it's a little crazy.

19:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn They borrowed money and they had this idea of putting two 16-track tape recorders and a custom-made console that they had designed and built themselves on a truck and then going out and recording concerts. Larry, his partner, was more technician. My dad was more of a recording engineer.

19:22 David Baron and Ginger Winn My dad's whole philosophy behind recording was he came from studios where it captured everything live and we had worked on Sinatra sessions and all kinds of crazy sessions. Phil Ramone did Girl from Ipanema. He did all that stuff in the 60s that was very live and very vibey. I mean, so my dad got sort of like very attached to the idea that when everyone's playing, it sounds magical.

19:42 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

19:42 David Baron and Ginger Winn And when it's all happening together and your 16 tracks is all he felt you needed. He didn't feel like you needed 24 tracks.

19:48 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh, uh-huh.

19:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn And so he drove around and they recorded tons and tons of, I mean, way like crazy amounts of Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Joe Cocker. He did Chicago Live. He did Tina Turner and Ike Turner Live. He did.

20:03 David Baron and Ginger Winn he did a blue oyster cold slide record alice cooper he did tons and tons of rock records and the philosophy was always the same i wasn't there like for all of that i mean his truck did song remains the same my cousin was there like everyone so my cousin was 10 years older than me so he got to see the 70s part Yeah, of it and i didn't

20:21 Luke F. Walton yeah.

20:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn really come online until the 80s uh i missed all that kind of stuff but i got to see the later stuff like journey and you know things like that the

20:29 Luke F. Walton Sweet.

20:30 David Baron and Ginger Winn philosophy that my dad had about that recording it's funny I kind of rebelled against him and became a classical musician went to classical music school and I didn't engineer anything for the first 10 years of my career at all I always worked with engineers I kind of was like I'm a musician I'm an arranger and I'm like a note person and and now it's really funny my dad's philosophy is my philosophy now about the kind of records that I worked on I don't cut everything live because I make modern records but

20:58 David Baron and Ginger Winn But for the most part, I try to get people to play at the same time. I mean, I just finished Lumineers 5 and we did it mostly live. It's mostly in a huge studio and we tried to capture the energy that, you know, when you go see a huge show, there's an energy to it and it's very hard to capture that in the studio, as you probably well know.

21:18 David Baron and Ginger Winn And so my job recently has been to try to figure out how do we get that energy. the best we can because it's an artificial environment the studio in

21:28 Luke F. Walton Yep.

21:29 David Baron and Ginger Winn a live place now with with bands that play together and there's chemistry it's a lot easier you know when you're dealing with solo artists like Ginger like we do a lot piece by piece I still want that energy it's harder to get because you know you don't have that

21:44 David Baron and Ginger Winn 10 years of them playing together and having fights and having love for each other and all the other things that musicians have it's an interesting thing to think about but like the omen brothers you know they recorded a bunch of the shows and my dad said that the vocal of the record was two u87s if you know what they are like sort of condenser microphones facing the stage

22:04 David Baron and Ginger Winn literally the sound of the band because uh the phil maurice was very very dead because they had a lot of complaints from the neighbors so they just padded the hell out of it so there was no reverb time so

22:15 Luke F. Walton Cool

22:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn so the recordings done at phil maurice tend to be very very clear because they had to be quite loud on stage to be able to project because you know there was nothing pushing them back because you know most concert halls are quite wet they're designed for classical music or they're this this

22:33 Luke F. Walton Totally.

22:33 David Baron and Ginger Winn this one was designed to not for them not to get sued or for the cops not to come so uh he thinks that that because he did a ton of recording at the film where he said he felt like that really had a lot to do with the sound of that record cook county jail he told me was just nuts it was the vibe of bb king and going to a jail he said that they drove the truck over and they they made them drive over gray to look under it to see like whether there were prisoners hanging off before they could leave

22:59 Luke F. Walton Yes.

23:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn and uh the other thing about quick candid jail which is maybe a nerdier thing is that it was extremely windy so pretty much the bulk of all the microphones are dynamics there's

23:09 Luke F. Walton Oh, cool.

23:10 David Baron and Ginger Winn almost no condenser microphones on the recording of that record um i mean it's interesting it's like my choice you know how like people

23:18 David Baron and Ginger Winn especially nowadays and you do an audio podcast and people are so precious about microphones and in the 60s and 70s i i think in the 80s it changed a little bit but from what he was telling me it was like whatever you had that worked in that role was what you used you know if you can't use a u87 then you use a 57 or 58 you just have you

23:41 David Baron and Ginger Winn just have you use whatever and so they were having a lot of problems with wind and you know nowadays we have ice we have all these plugins that can get rid of noises but back then they had to do it at the time where it was that

23:52 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

23:52 David Baron and Ginger Winn was the recording it'd be ruined yeah so it was a lot of being very reactive and i think that kind of reactive engineering

23:59 David Baron and Ginger Winn is a beautiful art and only some people have it because you need to be given the chance to mix a live band or you need i'm not talking about front of house but actually Recording something that's happening live. It's a crazy art and to some extent it's a lost art because everyone's doing so much multitracking.

24:18 Luke F. Walton Got some big news everybody. My vinyl record is out. We didn't make a ton of these so these guys are gonna sell out and I'd love for you to get your hands on one of them because they're so dope.

24:28 Luke F. Walton They're so dope and it comes with a whole bunch of like liner notes and pictures and special stuff the things that really went into making this record and I want you to get your hands on it so go to scoobertdoobert.pizza or check out my Instagram for a link or click the link in the show notes or the

24:46 Luke F. Walton the bio or wherever you're watching this to pick up your copy you know they're going to sell out we really did not make very many of these and i want you to have it it's it's like a collector's item so thank you thank you for supporting my music and i can't wait for you to hear it actually on physical vinyl enjoy the rest of the episode Mm hmm.

25:03 Luke F. Walton That's how I got my I mean, I got my start doing the same thing. And yeah, I learned so much. And I learned how to not have a panic attack. Because it's so hard when you have Yeah, six, I was usually recording like 20 channels. It was never super, super crazy. But that was enough to be like, I'm hearing a crackle. Where's the crackle? Like something's wrong.

25:24 Luke F. Walton Like everything was fine last night. I tested everything and now it's broken.

25:29 David Baron and Ginger Winn One of the favorite pranks that old school musicians in the 70s used to do, especially brass players,

25:35 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

25:35 David Baron and Ginger Winn was to get aluminum foil. and as soon as they started rolling tape to take the aluminum foil and crinkle it right next to a microphone and then they would all die laughing apparently

25:46 Luke F. Walton Evil, evil, yeah,

25:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn that was like like a huge like I mean I get it people were amusing themselves and they were having a lot of fun but yeah it's it's hard and you can't catch everything I mean that's like the whole purpose of like why sometimes we have assistants and why we have teams is because you're paying attention to this but it's actually that it's like a house on fire so it's fun I mean in a way it's very exciting

26:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn and by the way 20 channels all those classic records were done with less than 20

26:11 Luke F. Walton Yes,

26:12 David Baron and Ginger Winn channels so

26:12 Luke F. Walton yes.

26:12 David Baron and Ginger Winn actually you were making a classic record

26:14 Luke F. Walton You're

26:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn you probably didn't

26:15 Luke F. Walton right.

26:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn know it but you know it's like nobody had those humongous consoles weren't around until the 80s no one had them you know and if you did it was like film place it was some place that no one could afford

26:28 Luke F. Walton Ginger, I'm so curious how, so you go from recording on kind of like DIY level and then going to record with David. How did your process and kind of your understanding and ethos around recording develop and change and maybe like what did you bring to each other? I'm really curious about kind of those worlds colliding and intersecting and the collaboration.

26:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, so when we went to David, we already had the album. sketched out as far as like a demo we

26:56 Luke F. Walton Cool.

26:56 David Baron and Ginger Winn had all the songs picked out and I made demos and logic so I basically did what I was doing for all my clients I had you know vocals fully produced songs mixed to some degree

27:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn and so we went into david's studio and i would just send him those tracks he could kind of like pick through and see what he wanted and to see what was good what was garbage what to keep what to throw out and then we would just kind of take it from there it was different with every song sometimes david would completely rearrange the chord structure and instruments and everything and

27:23 Luke F. Walton Cool.

27:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn then which was always a good choice and

27:26 Luke F. Walton Cool.

27:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn then other times other times he kept a lot of what i did which was really it was really cool for me to hear stuff that i had come up with and like

27:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn logic loops that I had chopped up and turned into something that I thought was even cooler it was really interesting to see that turned into a fully produced song and to see his process of what he does first what he does second like what does he choose to keep and what not and I learned a lot for sure as far as a producer it wasn't actually my first time going into like a big professional studio when I was 16 I went to Fame Studios in Muscle Shoals Alabama

28:01 David Baron and Ginger Winn and that was we

28:02 Luke F. Walton That sounds awesome.

28:03 David Baron and Ginger Winn were me and my mom was me and my mom we had hired some of their you know like southern Alabama musicians and

28:08 Luke F. Walton Yes.

28:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn we also recorded some demos so we had two fully produced songs and then we had I think like a day to record demos and they said that we had recorded like the most demos ever we

28:18 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

28:18 David Baron and Ginger Winn just me and my mom wrote and wrote and wrote so we had like a hundred songs and

28:23 Luke F. Walton Cool.

28:23 David Baron and Ginger Winn Oh then we my were gosh trying to record 30 demos and they were like wow that's that's really crazy But

28:27 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

28:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn when I was at fame we did it more like live you know it was Yeah, live musicians

28:34 Luke F. Walton mm

28:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn and they recorded everything live together and then um they recut what they needed to and I did vocals at the end so um with David we didn't have like a whole band in there because you know the assistant Renee was also the drummer and then we would bring in who else we needed so it was it was less of like a play everything live and it was more just like build off of what we have and then see what's good and take it from there so it was a really cool experience and we only had 18 days to do it so

28:59 David Baron and Ginger Winn So we all had to be very smart with what battles we chose to fight and which ones we chose to just leave because we didn't have a lot of time

29:06 Luke F. Walton That's such a good way to cut your teeth and grow in a super time compressed rapid way. That's a beautiful thing. And I also love hearing about the chain of influence and apprenticeship, like you were talking about with your father, David, and then passing it on. I just love to think about the family tree of music.

29:26 Luke F. Walton music and how so many people you know just affect and influence but to different percentages and different degrees and that's what creates how cool American music is

29:35 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. absolutely you know one of the things that was interesting about ginger's demos was i mean a lot of times there was a lot of really great ideas in there and there was some amazing stuff some sometimes we did recut the songs because we wanted to sort of change the feel but she had gone through them so much and i feel like

29:54 David Baron and Ginger Winn she knew the material really well and that's really important when you're recording. Most of the artists I work with, it's actually kind of interesting and I was thinking about this the other day, they don't do demos anymore. Most people bring in voice memos or they just play it on guitar and piano and they want to see what's going to happen in the studio.

30:11 David Baron and Ginger Winn So Ginger, actually, you were probably the most prepared person that I've worked with in the past few years.

30:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn that's hilarious i was worried i was unprepared so I mean, people literally come in with half songs. songs and actually

30:23 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

30:23 David Baron and Ginger Winn sometimes the half songs have done really well because sometimes leaving it open in the studio gives you this weird fire of inspiration like you know like you never sing something the way that you sing it when you first think of it you never play something kind of like the way that you play it when you first are inspired to do it a lot of people that I know don't make demos because they say there's a lot of danger in competing with your demos in the studio and that if you have a demo you'll constantly be like what's

30:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn Was the vocal better on the demo? Was it better on this? Was it better on that? And I've been in the studio where people just go back and forth and usually they end up pretty dissatisfied with their records because they like something about the demo and they like something about the recording, but they don't like either one.

31:06 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

31:06 David Baron and Ginger Winn So when you start off fresh, sometimes you like it because it's new and there's this joy of newness. Newness is always the most exciting thing in the world. The funny thing is, I don't feel like we had any of that demo.

31:18 David Baron and Ginger Winn like we didn't weren't attached to demos we didn't have demo love but we did we were informed by demos and we absolutely used musical elements from the demos which we wouldn't have never been able to do any i mean we we did the record from soup to nuts including mixing in 18 days and mastering

31:34 Luke F. Walton Cool.

31:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah I think that we were all very open-minded as far as what they could be other than the demos because they were just demos like there was certainly a magic to it but as far as the vocals like I was really open to

31:45 David Baron and Ginger Winn expanding what I had already done vocally on the demos because it was all very soft and recorded in my bedroom and you know at times I was literally just trying not to be loud because I lived in an apartment in Cape Town

31:56 Luke F. Walton Yes.

31:56 David Baron and Ginger Winn and so it was really nice to get into the studio and to get to see those turn into something even greater I feel like we we had the demos and we

32:06 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's almost like when a girl puts on makeup like it's like it just enhances the way you actually look like i feel like we enhance what we had in the demos which was a really really magical thing in my opinion yeah

32:17 Luke F. Walton yeah i agree with that i've seen the demoitis thing happen before and i i do think that's part of it is if you pour too much love into the demo just just keep going and just finish it you know like if if you're if you're trying to point towards a direction with the demo like avoid that's why vice voice memos are really nice

32:44 David Baron and Ginger Winn i've definitely used voice memo stuff i'm not gonna lie

32:46 Luke F. Walton too

32:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn i definitely heard a few things i've been like i don't know we're not we're not recreating that that's

32:50 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

32:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn awesome we'll figure it out i think good d noise stuff and stuff

32:53 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

32:53 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's but it's it's true the demo thing is like it's a very funny thing and now with the way people record you can make a full sounding record by yourself literally in your bedroom with a laptop and so yeah i always think about this because i i do records where with live players that's really all i do and i always think like well i'm really doing it the hard way because someone else can actually literally sit with the lap

33:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn a laptop on an airplane or in a back of a van and make a whole record and it could be pretty awesome record honestly like it doesn't make it better or worse for me personally though I love the energy of when people start interacting with your music so like you bring in a guitar player the personality the guitar player the interaction of the guitarist the sound that they have the

33:37 David Baron and Ginger Winn everything the mood the lighting whatever it's like it all kind of like starts becoming one thing and it becomes like i always look at recording for me at least ideal recording is like a series of snapshots of time it's

33:49 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

33:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn a time it's like snapshots of the people and the inspiration and the weather and the food and the conversation and it's like it's why i love being in woodstock because it's remarkable it's

34:00 Luke F. Walton Yes.

34:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn beautiful and i was in midtown manhattan for a long time and that had a different energy and

34:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn I feel like we're all when we when we interact with other people, I always feel like it's like imagine you had five supercomputers together. That's what it's like having five great musicians.

34:16 Luke F. Walton Mm

34:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn It's

34:16 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

34:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn like that's why I think AI is how they get to compete. They probably will, but not yet, because when you get five amazingly talented people together playing together and interacting with each other and interacting with songs, it's so different than if you just had one person doing it doesn't make it better or worse. But I like it. For me, it's more inspirational.

34:37 Luke F. Walton yeah and i mean i agree i'm a laptop guy i mean i play i play my stuff you know but it's all with myself and with loops and on my

34:45 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah.

34:45 Luke F. Walton laptop and i've got my uad thing and i would rather be playing with musicians that'd be way more fun that'd be more inspiring but i do think that it does create a little bit of a genre split like somebody described it as getting more of your stank on it like when you when you just keep running it through the same supercomputer over and over again or you Or you split it up between different five, you know?

35:04 David Baron and Ginger Winn I agree with that. I mean, I agree with that. I mean, Lenny plays the bokeh ball his own instruments and he always has. I agree with that, but I also think. It's funny,

35:13 Luke F. Walton Mm

35:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn if you just

35:14 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

35:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn get a band together, like,

35:15 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

35:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know, and I've seen this happen a lot, but they're average musicians.

35:19 Luke F. Walton Yes.

35:19 David Baron and Ginger Winn They're not inspired musicians, they're not particularly special, you will probably get a terrible, terrible production. And it'll sound very generic because everyone will do the most generic and safe thing that they can. It's when you get really inspired people together, it could be one person, it could be two people, it could be five.

35:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn That's when the magic happens. So it's really more about the quality of interaction

35:38 Luke F. Walton mm-hmm i like

35:39 David Baron and Ginger Winn than

35:40 Luke F. Walton that quality

35:40 David Baron and Ginger Winn it is about anything

35:41 Luke F. Walton of

35:41 David Baron and Ginger Winn else.

35:41 Luke F. Walton interaction yeah

35:42 David Baron and Ginger Winn And so the quality of interaction with yourself can be quite deep because you've had all this time to like learn yourself.

35:48 Luke F. Walton yeah totally

35:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn The quality sometimes of like, okay, think about why the BD sounds so amazing. These were brothers singing together. They had brotherly singing.

35:55 Luke F. Walton yes right

35:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn That's phenomenal.

35:56 Luke F. Walton yep

35:56 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean, you can't, I

35:57 Luke F. Walton totally and

35:58 David Baron and Ginger Winn mean,

35:58 Luke F. Walton there's that's long history

35:58 David Baron and Ginger Winn inspiring.

35:59 Luke F. Walton of that too like everly brothers like there's there's a and i mean even like we're talking about the beatles paul and john were basically brothers they've been you know playing like literally every day since they were like 15 or

36:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn Well,

36:08 Luke F. Walton 16 years

36:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn that's the old thing. You spent all this time and that interaction is very close interaction. But, you know, sometimes it's interesting. It's like sometimes you bring an outsider in, which we did, you know, a few times, Ginger. it energizes everything in a different way like

36:24 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

36:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know in the film when they bought Billy Preston

36:26 Luke F. Walton exactly.

36:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn into the Beatles all of a sudden they had to behave because he's such a sick musician which he is like you watch him play and you're like oh damn I would have behaved too like it's sort of like the process is whatever works for you but I think we're all after the same thing which is making people feel things so however you are able to do it I think Ginger you you're sort of empathetic to humans to people

36:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn which is why you can perform solo at Hollywood Bowl you know you you are opening that's the hardest gig to open up for people that don't know you they don't necessarily want to hear you and to win them over like I actually think that's the grand prize in music like if you can do that then you're ready for other stuff oh

37:06 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I didn't I didn't actually open for Hollywood Bowl. All the other places, though.

37:11 David Baron and Ginger Winn you did oh well but you did open I up guess for I Crazy guess. Bowl because I did Yeah,

37:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn see a crazy well, photo I. Oh, you're talking about the San Diego. Yeah, that was

37:19 David Baron and Ginger Winn I in San Diego. see it. I don't remember the name of the venue, but that was, I felt like I was on like a UFO spaceship. It was really crazy.

37:25 Luke F. Walton Was it the amphitheater there, like near the border?

37:29 David Baron and Ginger Winn i think so um it's like literally just a big circle thing that you stand in that's the stage um

37:36 Luke F. Walton Yeah, cool.

37:36 David Baron and Ginger Winn but yeah that was that was a really interesting experience to be playing for people like they had said they don't really know me and don't necessarily want to hear me because i'm just the opener like they're not even here to see me and so it was really it was really uh challenging and i

37:53 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know if anyone's watching this and is wanting to do the same thing the the best the best thing that I found was to just be this is gonna sound so lame but to just be myself like if I'm a little bit nervous on stage to just say like hey this is my first tour like I'm a little bit nervous so go easy on me and as soon as I would talk to the audience and just be a real person it was actually a lot less nerve-wracking because I just felt like

38:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know I'm not really like putting up a front I'm just there and I am a little uncomfortable and no they don't know me but I'm gonna play anyways because I'm here so and it went over great like I got the best response just being like that and being honest really

38:31 Luke F. Walton That's really good advice. And especially when you're, I mean, you're out there without the whole production and like the headlining act would have where there's like built in mystique of lighting and full attention and everything like you can you can put on more of the show. But yeah, when you're the opener, it is a little bit more naked. And especially if you're performing the way that you were.

38:53 Luke F. Walton I think that's really good advice.

38:56 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I didn't have like four guitar players.

38:58 Luke F. Walton Exactly.

39:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn That was just me.

39:02 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

39:02 David Baron and Ginger Winn But don't It was great. you think I learned a lot for sure. as training, you know, I've seen this a lot because I work with a lot of young musicians.

39:09 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

39:10 David Baron and Ginger Winn when i see them in the studio usually when they're doing their first record they're pretty green and they're pretty raw and there's a lot of stuff that needs to be ironed out and then after i see them after they've done like one or two tours people

39:20 Luke F. Walton You do. You

39:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn come back in and i swear they're like seasoned session musicians like

39:24 Luke F. Walton do.

39:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn what

39:24 Luke F. Walton Totally.

39:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn people learn on the road i don't know if there's any education quite like being in front of a lot of people and figuring out how to do it it's

39:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

39:31 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah,

39:32 Luke F. Walton Agree.

39:32 David Baron and Ginger Winn you

39:32 Luke F. Walton Agree.

39:33 David Baron and Ginger Winn really get so to see impressive people in engagement. Mm well -hmm. you know right away like i mean it's funny like i was talking to somebody and they got a huge gig huge huge huge gig and they were playing madison square garden for the first time which is a

39:46 Luke F. Walton Wow.

39:47 David Baron and Ginger Winn monumental gig for anybody and they said you know some of my songs don't work there that was right after they did it and and they were right and they retooled some of their songs then they rewrote some songs for bigger venues which you never think about but

40:03 Luke F. Walton Oh yeah.

40:04 David Baron and Ginger Winn different Yeah. songs work for different crowds and different size venues and you were playing pretty big venues like it's actually it's pretty impressive actually as an opener um i mean i've seen openers just like i mean i saw u2 once and they were so mean to the opener and

40:21 Luke F. Walton Oh,

40:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn i was kind of like the opener was awesome by the way but the Oh, opener my gosh.

40:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn turned out to be pj harvey yeah so this is probably 15 years ago maybe more but like no one was paying attention to nobody and i was like oh she's awesome and i went up to the front to watch her because i was like this is kind of fierce you know

40:41 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. and then later on everyone's like oh pg harvey's so amazing well you didn't pay attention to her because i was there to see good bono and whatever it's like i don't know great

40:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn Exactly. training everything you're doing is training right i guess everything every time you step in the studio you step into a stage you're getting trained somehow you're getting a little

40:57 David Baron and Ginger Winn bit Learn something for sure. Yeah, Yeah, I he's was really lucky open with to that it. tour with the Gypsy Kings because not only were the Gypsy Kings nice, but their crew was nice. All the people putting on the show and also their audience was nice. The people who come to see Gypsy Kings, it's a really interesting crowd because it's people of all ages, people of all different kinds. Yeah, I feel like I couldn't have asked for a better audience, really.

41:18 Luke F. Walton Sorry to interrupt this very important broadcast, but it's time for one more advertisement for myself for this podcast. What I'm asking for is for you to rate it five stars. If stars share with your friends, this is like the most important thing for this podcast to grow. So if you want to do this, you go onto the podcast screen, right? You click on the dot, dot, dot on Spotify.

41:37 Luke F. Walton Under there, it says rate show and you go and you click it five stars. If you could do that for me, that's the best way for the algorithms and all that stuff to share it out with the world. I know that it's a lot to ask, but if you could please, please, please, just please just hit those three dots and a five star would really help us out and helps us, you know, get.

41:54 Luke F. Walton You know, get the word out and spread the love of music. So thank you. If you're listening on YouTube, you know what to do. Like, subscribe, all that good stuff. Thank you so much. And here's the rest of the episode. What do you think it's like right now kind of trying to break as an artist and get your name out there?

42:09 Luke F. Walton Any advice or illuminate our audience into recognizing what it's really like out there trying to make a career in 2024?

42:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn But I always tell people that, you know, it's taken me 10 years plus to get here and I'm only getting started.

42:23 David Baron and Ginger Winn and so if anyone is doing the same thing and they're expecting you know the instant gratification of our tiktok world it's just not going to happen because that's not really how lasting success comes if anything comes up quick it's probably going to go down quick it's just kind of the laws of life so you know it just takes patience patience is the biggest thing and if you're really enjoying what you're doing you don't mind being patient and you don't mind the time it takes to get better and better and better and eventually this was this was always my theory when I was a kid

42:53 David Baron and Ginger Winn everyone that I know at 12 when I'm doing music everyone that I know is not going to be doing music anymore when they're 15 and

42:58 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

42:59 David Baron and Ginger Winn so on and so forth at 20 most of those people have dropped out and so like at 25 I'm almost 25 now in a couple weeks at 25

43:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn everyone I know like 95% of the people I know who used to do music just don't do music anymore

43:11 Luke F. Walton Yes.

43:11 David Baron and Ginger Winn and so the the amount of people who are also doing it and also have the 15 years experience that I have is just a lot less and so the longer you continue I feel like the higher your chances are of success because you're getting better and better and you're just sticking with it so it's really the same as anything you know 10 10 years takes about 10 years if anyone's going to do this 10 years and um then

43:35 David Baron and Ginger Winn and you'll start to see things picking up but just stick with it just just stick with it that's always what I tell people yeah

43:41 Luke F. Walton And the pickup is not always linear or expected. There will be troughs and valleys and sudden elevator-like jolts up or down, but you're right. It takes that 10 years just to even start to see the exponential curve start to form.

43:57 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean I basically didn't even do music from 17 to 20 because I was a pastry chef I was working in a restaurant I was

44:03 Luke F. Walton Cool,

44:04 David Baron and Ginger Winn having

44:04 Luke F. Walton I saw that in your

44:04 David Baron and Ginger Winn the

44:04 Luke F. Walton Spotify bio.

44:05 David Baron and Ginger Winn time of my life yeah

44:05 Luke F. Walton I was wondering about that.

44:06 David Baron and Ginger Winn I was like having the time of my life decorating cakes and you know being a pastry chef head pastry chef you know managing a restaurant it was so fun and I loved it but then I just realized like what am I doing like I am a musician I am I'm an entrepreneur like I'm not supposed to be in the restaurant business so I loved it but then I just realized like this is not what I'm going to do with my life and then I went back to music so you

44:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn So, you know, thank God I did because, mm you know, there's -hmm yeah all this is happening now. So even if you're in the music industry and you take a couple years off, like just go back to the music industry. It's not like you are not allowed back in. I mean, just stick with it.

44:38 David Baron and Ginger Winn good advice i It's my advice. like it david anything you want to add on that I mean, it's a very heavy subject.

44:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn I've seen a lot of people get very successful and I've seen a lot of people fade away and it's actually never who you predict. For the most part, I actually think it all boils down to hard work and if you really love the process of love making music and you stick with it.

45:01 David Baron and Ginger Winn things will happen for you it's if you want instant gratification that it's a very very very difficult business and right now there's so much emphasis on socials but

45:11 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. the truth of the matter is that game is changing every day styles are changing every day I wouldn't chase trends because they don't tend to pay off I would do whatever you really love if you really love what you're doing then the process is amazing and that's its own reward and this has been my experience if you really love it and you really react

45:29 David Baron and Ginger Winn react well to it people tend to find it and it tends to do well and i've seen people go from zero to a million very quickly after the 10 years after all that work that you're talking about i mean i've seen it like i've been part of songs where i was like i'm not sure this is you know you don't know what's a hit you don't know when people are going to react to things i mean you know it when you're starting to work with bigger bands or bigger artists

45:54 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know people are going to stream it but that doesn't mean anything's going to be I mean you could be anybody and you're still not guaranteed to hit it's such a curious thing right now because there's so many artists but most of them quit and they mostly quit quickly or what they do is they try a style and that doesn't work in six months they try another style and I always think that's a little bit like I mean you're not really digging into what your art is if there's any kind of advice I'd give to young artists is find out what you really like

46:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn like and do that you know just because someone released a new record and it's doing really well don't copy it you know because there's plenty of time to get signed to a label well they'll tell you you need to copy it i'm just kidding uh

46:31 David Baron and Ginger Winn Exactly. Exactly. any label people listening are like oh don't say that out loud but it's kind of semi i mean look you know

46:39 David Baron and Ginger Winn trends are trends but they're always late they're always a year later so like when you hear something on the radio and it's super huge everyone who made that music's already moved on so

46:50 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

46:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn you just might as well make the music you're gonna make if you try to copy stuff if you try to like one of the things that i see a lot online and it's i i think it's funny it's like the minute the song blows up there's a zillion covers of it on

47:03 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

47:03 David Baron and Ginger Winn tiktok and instagram everyone's trying to get into the heat of a hit hit song and to me that feels like antithetical to what music was like in the 60s or 70s where they would have said you're totally being a sellout now you know what i mean like like

47:19 David Baron and Ginger Winn Mm don't -hmm. do that like do the opposite do something anti that like be a punk there's always going to be a backlash and i feel like some of those covers by the way are amazing so i'm like i'm happy that some of them make them because you're like that's better than the original song but for the most part i really really value people being original and i actually feel like if you sound unique and you are yourself like on stage or in a recording you're way more likely to win than if you sound like somebody else

47:44 David Baron and Ginger Winn you know what i mean there was a million amy winehouses right now there's a million noah kahans there's

47:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes, yes, a million Yeah. of them and you don't need we have noah kahn we don't need another one we have zach ryan we don't need any more of them don't be the second one be be the first one and if you are the product of your own experiences like you're a pastry chef you're from the south you lived in south i mean your life is weird then be all of those things and be and if you're nervous be nervous on stage tell people you're nervous i mean

48:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean, I actually think you lean into it and don't quit. And actually, Yeah. that's the biggest issue because it's the last person standing business. Most people quit, including on the mixing and engineering front.

48:22 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, yeah Most people get frustrated and they don't make enough money at a certain age, they just stop. And that's

48:29 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. why there's They feel like so they need much. to get their life together. well yeah I got to do something I'm you know it's usually at I have a few friends and I'll mention one right now and at like 31 he blew up and he made a record and said I'm never going to you know I'm going to make one last record and see how it goes and he made a record and no one listened to it for a little while and then it exploded And now he's playing Madison Square Garden this week.

48:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn Cool. Amazing.

48:57 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

48:57 David Baron and Ginger Winn he had no label and he had no background and he had nobody helping him and he just said I'm going to make the record I want to make and this is my last shot because he had made a bunch of records that didn't work now Madison Square Garden is figuring in a lot tonight so Ginger when are you playing Madison Square Garden let's get you there yeah

49:13 Luke F. Walton Yes.

49:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn 2025. I don't know. I mean I love those goals I know it's like you know magical thinking they call it But I you know or unrealistic thinking I kind of like it. I find it very attractive to have like

49:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn You know, just imagining yourself doing these amazing things. I remember talking to Wes and Jerry and their entire goal when they were not successful with the Lumineers was to play Red Rocks. It's all they ever wanted.

49:36 Luke F. Walton yeah cool it's a good one that's a great goal i love red

49:40 David Baron and Ginger Winn Oh

49:40 Luke F. Walton rocks man yeah

49:40 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean, I it's an awesome. kind of want to play in Antarctica because I don't want to go to all the continents in

49:44 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, my life I feel and like you I want to would yeah make that happen. Antarctica needs some good music.

49:48 Luke F. Walton yeah totally the researchers

49:49 David Baron and Ginger Winn for

49:50 Luke F. Walton the

49:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn the penguins man

49:51 Luke F. Walton penguins hell yeah Yeah, small little version in my life. I've got, I have been practicing Japanese for quite a while. I decided I want to do a song in Japanese. So I just covered a song. Nobody liked it. Nobody cared. But I kept at it and I kept trying to sing in Japanese and like now I have friends in Japan and I'm working on music with a bunch of Japanese people. I'm going to go play a tour in Japan

50:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn That's

50:13 Luke F. Walton next

50:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn so cool.

50:14 Luke F. Walton month. So it's like,

50:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn Well, that's amazing.

50:16 Luke F. Walton but nobody got it. Nobody liked it. Nobody wanted it. but i wanted it and just

50:22 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah.

50:22 Luke F. Walton over enough time it's just like okay now that's a thing now um go be a japanese pop singer it's

50:27 David Baron and Ginger Winn but you're

50:28 Luke F. Walton like hell

50:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn the only

50:28 Luke F. Walton yeah

50:28 David Baron and Ginger Winn one who mattered in the you're the only one who mattered in the development of it you you you did you did it right and uh i think that's like a great model for artists is like do what you want to do like i talked to someone the other day and they're like 20 and they're like i love linda ronstadt and

50:44 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yes. she literally loves linda Heck ronstadt yeah. That's i'm like cool. so make music like that no one else is so you might as well do it

50:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn Right. i mean she did in the 70s but it's a great model It's you a great model. know Yeah.

50:54 David Baron and Ginger Winn and It's a great model. by the way renee renee would like your japanese my assistant is fluent in japanese

50:58 David Baron and Ginger Winn Hey, and sick. I'll send you some so i always feel like Japanese it's songs. it's useful at some point

51:03 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, we totally. have translated things into japanese Yeah, it's cool. Awesome. yeah

51:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's yeah crazy we're talking about this because we've actually go been talking about doing a japan tour like

51:12 David Baron and Ginger Winn right on let me just know i randomly yeah it's i because we have a couple we have like one connection

51:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn i have at least a couple people that might be able to book some shows so we'll be in contact

51:20 David Baron and Ginger Winn let's and see if so cool we can make that happen it's a small world and we all should help each other out yeah

51:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn That's awesome. um so yeah it's really crazy when you compare it to like engineers and whatnot you know the music business it's all about just sticking with it whereas like engineers and you know more of like the logical thinker jobs it's it's it's so much less of the Sticking with it, you know keeping a strong mindset.

51:40 David Baron and Ginger Winn It's so much more practical So I just I don't know. I've never thought about it in comparison to those kind of jobs before

51:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn Like real jobs. like I'm just kidding. real jobs real Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah like real jobs like

51:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn jobs with job real demands jobs yeah salary You packages know, I think part of the part of the issue is that music is so hyper competitive and there's so many people who want every job. But the truth of the matter is when I talk to people in other fields, it's actually very similar. You talk to academics and like if there's an open position at university or something, there's it's like 200 PhDs trying to get that one job

52:08 David Baron and Ginger Winn like. Yeah. so it's like everything's hard everything's hard and you just got to go through you got to take it in stride and you don't always have to win in fact I think sometimes it's valuable to not win and then you figure out how to win I mean not the Beatles got turned down you know just to use like everybody like rejection is powerful it can actually make you a better artist if you don't give up that's the key

52:31 David Baron and Ginger Winn I was just going to say my last thing was just I think it's really important to stick with.

52:34 David Baron and Ginger Winn with other musicians who are positive because if you are hanging around I've had this happen where you hang around more negative mind thinkers and it just you know brings you down and doesn't really inspire you to stick with it so if you're feeling upset or like stuck then just maybe change your social circle because it really does affect you a lot

52:52 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's great advice i've been i've been there i've hung out i've hung out with the people then they those people ended up quitting you know go figure

53:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn facts

53:00 Luke F. Walton Awesome.

53:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn I

53:01 Luke F. Walton On that note, I would love to turn to my last question. I'd like to hit you both with it and feel free, you can both jump in if you want to contribute on top of each other's answer. So this show is called Love Music More.

53:12 Luke F. Walton This last segment is called Love Music Why?

53:16 Luke F. Walton And this is a moment just to talk about why you love music, why you keep showing up for it, why you don't quit.

53:22 David Baron and Ginger Winn mean for me I think it's just really been one of the few things I'm good at like I

53:27 David Baron and Ginger Winn I don't know that's that's that's the first thought that came to mind I might have something deeper to say that's my first initial thought

53:33 David Baron and Ginger Winn I mean, for me, music. is about community. It almost has like a tribal power for me and it makes me feel things very deeply that are not necessarily things that could be expressed with regular language.

53:46 David Baron and Ginger Winn Like the other day I put on Intervisions after we were finished with a session and you know a few of us were having glasses of wine and it felt very powerful to be with the people that I love listening to music that makes me feel things deeply and

54:02 David Baron and Ginger Winn that has inspired me since I've been a kid I love that record it just has this power over your life it has the power to change your life some people have described it to me and this is not so much for me as they say it's like drugs without the bad stuff you

54:15 David Baron and Ginger Winn Mm know without -hmm. the repercussions but for me it's actually more of a bonding

54:19 David Baron and Ginger Winn experience a bonding social experience it bonds you to the people who made the music and their intentions it bonds you to each other the camaraderie in the studio is is insane I mean you end up loving people because you're you're deeply intimate with them for sometimes very short periods of time but those connections because the music lives last so long like you know we're talking about a record made in the 70s but like there's records I've made where when I listen to them I feel

54:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn a lot and I feel like it changes the universe like you know I go on a bike ride and I put in my air pods and I put in a certain record and the whole landscape changes and I feel connected to people so for me it's a lot about connection it's also a lot about deepness there's something very mysterious and deep about the universe and it's it's almost religious that music allows me to access

55:12 David Baron and Ginger Winn And I hope, and I feel like it makes people's lives, a lot of people's lives, it makes them much better. And the hard times, it can actually help you like get through hard times, but it also enhances the great times, your parties, like the other day, you're hanging out with all these people.

55:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn you don't even i barely knew them but i kind of love them and the music kind of bonds us it's like modern church or something it's a for me i think it's just a very very powerful medium that goes way beyond language and like you know everyone says oh social media connects us all and it does but it also pulls us apart like we're always fighting And I know people fight about music,

55:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn but in the end, like if you go see a big concert and everyone's singing along, you look around, you're like, there's 50,000 people feeling something communal.

55:57 David Baron and Ginger Winn And I think that's extremely powerful. And I think that is something that's primordial built into us and that we can access and we're so lucky that we have the tools to access that kind of heavy emotion. Because, you know.

56:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn Life can be tricky and it's so nice to have things that make our lives so much better. I'm happy to be part of it. I think it's a noble mission to create great art and to try to make the world a better place.

56:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, I definitely feel like it's... when I do music it's like connecting to something bigger than myself because a lot of the times when I'm coming up with melodies and stuff like I don't really know where it comes from because I don't know much about music theory and so it's kind of like just comes from you know somewhere yeah

56:42 David Baron and Ginger Winn Bob Dylan said he didn't know any of those like you know insane songs he wrote came he's like I don't know how that I couldn't write them now they just came through me it turns you into a conduit but also like one of the things that I always look at it's kind of like

56:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn I always call it a flowing river like we're on the boat for a little while we're music makers right now and then there'll be the next people on the boat and like you could throw some notes to the next people but it's like it's going to keep going and it's bigger than us and it's more powerful than us and it's just going to keep evolving and it's one of the best parts of being alive for me.

57:13 David Baron and Ginger Winn I think that yeah coming back to like why do I actually do music because I don't I've never really thought about it I think it's just because I grew up

57:21 David Baron and Ginger Winn and it's sort of like I just kind of am a musician like I've really been doing music ever since I was a baby because my dad gave me a ukulele because I'm part Hawaiian and so it just is kind of who I am I can't imagine a life without music I kind of had that when I was a pastry chef and I didn't really play music that much and it just it's like I just can't be like that like that's just not the kind of person that I am I'm just a musician so I think I'll I'm pretty sure I'll always do music

57:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn Just because I always have been. You'll always see music like that Miles Davis thing, that interviewer asked him was like, would you do music if you weren't getting paid for it? Miles is like, yeah, I'm a musician.

58:01 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah exactly Done. like You I are would a musician. write songs even if no one listens you

58:05 David Baron and Ginger Winn It's know because part it's of like you. I do I write songs and I'm like no one will ever hear that song but it's like it made me feel good I guess the lyric writing is sort of a way especially if I'm going through a hard time it's very therapeutic to just put it on paper and it's like I get to turn this negative experience into something really beautiful which is a song and it's like I get to play it and I get to if I play it in front of people people

58:27 David Baron and Ginger Winn I guess that I'm getting to express how I feel. I didn't used to be very much of a talker and I didn't really share a lot of myself with people. So. I guess that it's a comfortable way for me to share how I feel, especially the negative stuff that I feel I don't really like to talk about because it just brings me down if I talk about it. So it's also therapeutic to me to be a

58:47 David Baron and Ginger Winn And songwriter. it's your processing. But sometimes we also benefit from other people's processing. Sometimes you hear something that give you a perspective on your own life. And that also can be very powerful. You know, certain songs just have this power of uplifting. uplifting you when you need to be uplifted or sometimes when they're dealing with difficult subjects or they're sad. I don't know there's catharsis in that too.

59:07 David Baron and Ginger Winn I don't know why but sometimes you listen to a really sad song and it kind of makes you tear up and then for some reason that does something therapeutic to you. I mean it's a very powerful medium. The listening to it, the absorbing it, but also creating it in my opinion.

59:24 David Baron and Ginger Winn yeah i can't imagine just listening sometimes i because my sister just listens to music and like some of my friends just listen and i'm like what is that like to just listen you don't make music and you just get to experience it i can't imagine

59:37 David Baron and Ginger Winn I think it's beautiful. I think it's great. I mean, it depends on who you are, but like there's people who are so passionate about music. There's people who travel the world to see artists play that they love. I mean.

59:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn i think everything is valid i think making music is more about like the it's not for everybody it's it can be a very hard experience and plus it takes so much work to be good at it which is what a lot of people don't realize every aspect of the music business from being a songwriter to being a singer to being a mix engineer to being a mastering engineer to being a great musician everything takes so many hours and so much blood sweat and tears that's not for everybody other people you know they have other

60:16 David Baron and Ginger Winn priorities in their lives but the music's there for everybody the actual listening is there for everybody and that's why you can have songs that stream two billion

60:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn Mm-hmm. because they're powerful and Yeah. people keep going back to them because they do something powerful for a lot of people and I think that there's a lot of healing power in that and I also think there's a lot of like life enhancement in it and I think it's part of the process it's also a way that we deal with you were saying like you feel uncomfortable talking about negative things um I think a lot of us feel that way you know or we're taught like don't don't

60:50 David Baron and Ginger Winn don't say negative things and this is what's so interesting about Generation Z the the latest generation is they love talking about trauma and things that have happened to them in a way that a lot of other generations weren't as open about and it's actually it's like watching the healthiest generation grow up you're like oh my god they're 16 year olds are actually talking about how hard it is to be 16 whereas before if you talked about it you just get beat up and they make it even harder it's a deep subject

61:17 David Baron and Ginger Winn yet but on the other hand you can't deny the power of music and you can't deny how personal it is and how someone can absolutely love one artist and someone else can hate that artist and those kinds of powerful connections like someone said to me like the worst thing to be is bland like people should either love you or hate you or like have a strong feeling or strong reaction to you and I'm a little bit like Yeah,

61:42 David Baron and Ginger Winn it's not for everybody, but when it is for you, you know, when you put on a favorite song, I mean, it is very powerful. Like, Junior, what's like one song that you love? Not the one that you wrote, but something in your iPhone or whatever, however you listen to music.

62:00 David Baron and Ginger Winn I only recently started listening to Six Season by Noah Kahn. Like, I'm super late with everything. I think it's the song Six Season where I'm just like, that is a great song. Great song.

62:10 David Baron and Ginger Winn Fair enough. Yeah. And a lot of other people think it's a great song too.

62:13 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

62:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah, it's It's good storytelling and it feels very legit. It feels very legit. Like it feels like Noah. He wrote it with Grape Simon, but it feels very Noah-esque, you know?

62:25 David Baron and Ginger Winn Very genuine. Yeah, I've worked with Noah and he's a nervous guy and he's what he says he is, he is. You know, I've known him for a long time.

62:36 David Baron and Ginger Winn And I think it's a great song, but I think there's a lot of, you know, it's funny, I like that song, but then I also like Sabrina Carpenter's, you know, Espresso just because it's silly. It's a fun song.

62:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. And there's different aspects of songs. I mean, I don't. think that song would stick with me but you know you hear it now you're like all right yeah that's pretty silly and it's got its own place in the vernacular I think what we experience as listeners is very powerful I think what we do as artists can be very powerful for us and then hopefully if we really follow our own muse and our own voice and our inner voice and we don't try to

63:14 David Baron and Ginger Winn Sellers sell short we can also make music that can really reach a lot of people I've seen it done and it's always the goal was you want to make stuff that really moves you but it's nice when other people react as well

63:26 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah.

63:27 Luke F. Walton But with that, where can people get in touch?

63:30 David Baron and Ginger Winn or everywhere you know all those places that people say spotify apple music instagram ginger w-i-n-n that's how you spell it youtube you know everywhere i we're releasing some newer videos in the next few months one of them being filmed in italy yeah some really cool videos coming up that i'm excited for

63:48 David Baron and Ginger Winn Awesome. That's really exciting. How about you, David? I mean, you know, I'm a producer for Living. So the best way to find me is just my website, bdavidbaron.com or Instagram, David Baron, and you can follow what I'm doing. I mean, pretty easily. I have a lot of records coming out in the next year, but I'm very proud of Ginger's music.

64:06 David Baron and Ginger Winn I like what we did together and I had no expectations of a ginger, as you well know, because I didn't know what we were going to actually be doing.

64:12 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah Yeah. It was one of the weirdest projects ever. And I told Ginger and Mathis, I was like, OK, so she has no music out and you guys. It was very fun because it was like being thrown in together to make something. I think that's awesome. But yes, I mean, if you follow me, I always talk about my releases and what I'm working on. And I always appreciate any listen.

64:38 David Baron and Ginger Winn It doesn't have to be anything other than just take a listen, see if you like it.

64:43 David Baron and Ginger Winn Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for joining and I hope that all the listeners love music a little bit more now.

64:51 David Baron and Ginger Winn Me too. it's been a lot of fun it's been really great thank you guys Really appreciate it.

64:55 David Baron and Ginger Winn Thank you. All right. Have a great one.