Garvie Interview

0:01 Garvie Appreciate

0:12 Luke F. Walton What up everybody, welcome back to Music Appreciation 101. I am here with my good friend Garvie, who is making awesome music that I have been mixing recently, and I'm ready to deep dive into some...

0:25 Luke F. Walton Some tasty production choices and some of the crazy stuff that you're throwing at me as a mixing engineer and just hear a little bit more about what makes you tick and share with people a new perspective on music as we head into this new year. So welcome to the podcast, Garvie.

0:41 Garvie Hello, how you doing, Skib?

0:42 Luke F. Walton Doing great, man. So where are you based? Remind everybody.

0:46 Garvie I am based in London. I'm based in West London.

0:50 Luke F. Walton Very cool.

0:50 Garvie Yeah.

0:51 Luke F. Walton So yeah, I'm still in San Diego, so we've got a good chunk of the world covered between our two time zones.

0:59 Garvie Yeah. The planning's always difficult. Yeah.

1:02 Luke F. Walton I love it. I love it. So yeah, let's jump in. Let's talk about kind of what you're excited about musically. What are you working on right now? What have you got coming up for this new year? I know like new year is always a big deal. always a big time for creatives it kind of is like that refreshing like okay what am i doing next what are you doing next yeah

1:19 Garvie yeah so maybe maybe i should intro myself briefly as well i'm

1:23 Luke F. Walton of course

1:23 Garvie i'm

1:23 Luke F. Walton of course

1:23 Garvie a yeah so i'm a singer songwriter producer um i kind of diy uh much like you are obviously um

1:34 Garvie producer my own music and i'm releasing it online obviously um and yeah i've been doing this project for a couple of years and i had lots of projects before that and this is the one that i think is

1:45 Garvie stuck and it feels like it it's working for me at the moment but yeah um and it's it's a sort of this is something like you it's a kind of animated project where there's it's all these retro video game characters so like you with the kind of mask uh it's a similar thing with hiding hiding my face trying to just try to make it more about the music i guess which is um as we just started discussing has its has its difficulties and it's

2:11 Garvie it's this fun bit sometimes difficulties too but um the question yeah so this year it's it's getting as much music as i can out um in previous i've been um i've definitely gone through phases of being quite precious about production and i'm trying to just get a bit more just get things out there and not worry so much about them um

2:33 Garvie about the pro world just enjoy the process and just throw things out there and see what see what happens i suppose is my plan for this year really

2:40 Luke F. Walton I love it. That's great to hear. I mean, that totally resonates with the way that I kind of look at where music's at right now. I think that's kind of the space is like having a conversation with fans, getting stuff out and not waiting too long is important.

2:55 Garvie completely that's something to be honest that's something you i've been listening to your music for a little while now since we you know met and i've always found that pretty astonishing as your your work rate is is mad like and the speed that you i've read a few interviews with you and the speed you do things at does seem crazy like really impressive like yeah

3:16 Luke F. Walton thank you i mean it's it's interesting like especially because so i just i just got off mixing uh one of

3:22 Garvie one of one of Garvie's uh tracks and um it was it was fun because it was right at the same time as i was producing another one of my tracks and comparing the strategies that i had for mixing between the two was very weird it was like two different people i mean like using the same tools but it's like coming to something that uh like you've done and now i'm trying to like polish and i don't know

3:43 Garvie put it all together versus like putting together the pieces and polishing as you go it's just such a different headspace I love them both and I love that like we're able to have that and I also think that you think similarly musically to I to what I do but it was interesting just like thinking about like process and and kind of how that how that all fits in between

4:03 Garvie yeah completely like i i don't mix so i just i produce producing is relatively new to me as well but um

4:11 Garvie it's interesting yeah i've always found it interesting the idea of mixing your own stuff how do you how do you find that how do you not get in a funk with it you know in like kind of how do you gain perspective when you're mixing

4:25 Garvie Like my own stuff. yeah like how do you i don't know because i i that's what i love about having you to go to with mixing is it's just really cool that you know i'll send stuff over and you'll send it back and there'll be something there might be a track that's gone or something and then i which is it's really good i used to like when i was when i was younger i would i'd be like hang on where's this thing you know but it's now

4:51 Garvie I'm a bit audio and I'm a bit more I don't know I'm much more willing to accept opinions than I was when I was younger and it's nice now because it's validating because it's like ah that wasn't actually that good and now that I listen back I somebody has agreed with me and so I've got a bit of consensus you know what I mean it's nice I like that but how do you do without that it's interesting I'd be interested to hear.

5:13 Garvie yeah that's a really good question and that i actually it is it's kind of like it's kind of like

5:17 Garvie going a narrow path through the cliff on each side that's kind of what it feels like with mixing because there's the cliff of thinking every idea that you have is a good idea just terrible and then there's the other cliff of polishing everything to the point where it's like close to done before the project the song is done itself you

5:34 Garvie Yeah. have to leave rough edges because everything influences the other thing and i think that like with mixing somebody else's work all the pieces are there so then i can take like that zoomed out bird's eye

5:46 Garvie bird's eye view organize everything like really look at it systematically when i'm kind of going as i go i'm having to like think like what kind of bass tone am i going to do because i usually do bass last or second or third to last and um that changes the entire picture of a mix when the low end all of a sudden appears so it's like i have to hold myself back um and that's that ends up saving me from both of those extremes because if i don't

6:12 Garvie If I don't polish things to their final level, then I'm also not saying I love this idea so much I'm going to die for it. And so it allows me to like, like just start muting stuff and and re approach it the next day and be like, okay, yeah, this entire guitar part was kind of dumb. I'm just going to do it again. Or I'm just not going to have guitar in the song.

6:35 Garvie It's like Creating those gaps of imperfection ends up like leading to more ability to view it externally, I guess.

6:45 Garvie Yeah. that's really interesting yeah I know like that some somebody else was talking about mixing and they were saying about how you just mute it and then do you do you miss it

6:55 Garvie mm is -hmm always the question they would ask and actually so often you'll have something you think oh that's so cool but it's like but do you miss it when it's gone and actually quite often you you don't with

7:04 Garvie yeah yeah some things anyway yeah no totally and but also there are also like things that sometimes

7:10 Garvie they're to a level that are almost imperceptible and the general listenership wouldn't hear it but then you mute it and it's just like it's ruined now it's like like i think what i was trying to do with your most recent track was use the acoustic guitars in that way so there are moments where this song is very acoustic guitar driven and there are moments where the acoustic guitars like dip right below everything else in the mix it's still there um but

7:31 Garvie Yeah. it's that like interplay of where is like the lowest point that i can get that acoustic guitar guitar so that it sounds like somebody's just like wailing on the acoustic guitar but they're in the back of the stage and like everybody else

7:42 Garvie Yeah, around them I is hitting so hard that you can't hear them anymore and then when the dynamics come back down bring the acoustic guitar back up so that it has this like ebb and flow of the instrument that isn't plugged into an amplifier you

7:54 Garvie see, I know see. That kind of stuff I think is really like I don't I'm not a set it and forget it kind of mixing engineer Like I don't like just like this is the volume of this track It's like I am all about introductions and then pushes into different sections.

8:10 Garvie So like if there's Something that's really dynamic that arrives that happens a lot in your song like a like a syncopated drumbeat or something like that Like having the first impact be a real moment

8:21 Garvie maybe have it recede into the background as like the rest of the arrangement takes it over and then push into the next section have that guy stick out a little bit more like unique

8:30 Garvie yeah interactions that's yeah good well that's something i quite like about the way he makes it does feel quite dynamic and it does feel just alive i guess i don't know this the way you you think about it very differently to to me

8:43 Garvie Yeah, i don't sure. i'm not a big and it's a good thing anyway but it's yeah it's yeah it's really cool that's something i really like as a second opinion and just yeah the way you mix it is really cool i really like it

8:54 Garvie Well, thank you. And I totally, I mean, if... And in other world, I would be doing the same thing. That's what I used to do also. The pandemic was what really like made me be like, I love mixing. So I just started doing that a lot. I want to talk about your production style.

9:09 Garvie One of the things I like to think about your music is that it's like maximalist sometimes. Like there are so much, it's like looking at a color with or like an image with HDR or like, you know, like a bit more saturated.

9:24 Garvie what how what's your process like how do you like layer more things in how do you decide like this is the way that the arrangement is going to go because i really like it and it's different than how i arrange and i i just want to get inside your head a little bit

9:39 Garvie Yeah, yeah. This is something that... all right because i only yeah like i was saying i only really learned to produce or really learned is the wrong word but actually confidently started trying to produce which i think and with the mindset of releasing songs about two years ago i could use you know logic or whatever before that but i didn't really just go for it um and this is something actually that um a friend uh props mark who also you know who's also i would highly recommend people listen to um he produced he used to produce my music

10:12 Garvie sick um and still has he's i'm doing a gig with him soon he's drumming and he'll be playing after that and stuff but um he he will get the idea the main idea the chorus or the main whatever the big hook of the song is work that into what you might hear in the final chorus and work backwards from there and that was we have some quite cool when he was producing for me we had some quite cool

10:40 Garvie some fun doing that and then really just stripping things back and back and back and just deleting more and more and more until you start from very little and

10:47 Garvie Cool. then so i guess that might be that maximalism is because I everything like it.

10:51 Garvie is oriented around the maximum which i think it works for me and i guess it works for the kind of hyperactive kind of pop that i make because

11:00 Garvie Yep. that's what you're really working towards is those big moments i love a big chorus i love just a totally just a huge moment i i was never that down well i i like minimalism in terms of making things sound good with as few tracks as possible but i was never fully down with the whole thing where there was like really nothing you know there were a few years where it's things like the xx were a great group but

11:24 Garvie i it's get what you're saying not my vibe that style really Yes, Yeah. yes. And I think that's awesome to just be like, no, I'm going all the way. Like, and I try to do the same thing with mixing your stuff. I mix your stuff a little bit brighter than I mix my own stuff. Just because your music, like you're saying, is like, and the topics that you write about, there is this feeling of hyperactivity just in it.

11:50 Garvie And it's like if it was a dark mix, if it just did like, it would be like, what's this isn't pop anymore. This is this weird like.

11:58 Garvie I don't know trying to be too moody it's it's like it's very honest music and I think that it needs to be broad spectrum to feel like the full emotion of what you're putting out

12:09 Garvie That's it, like this is where like without music music marketing the top of that like does bore me at times but it's really important and that's so this whole project is based around eight bit video games retro video games I want to start at it I sort of created a sort of mission statement for all the music I make and actually having said that I can't remember what it was specifically but basically the idea was you know really blunt songs that just

12:38 Garvie they're colorful but in a way they're black and white and they're just it's Mm just all or nothing there's no i don't as a writer i don't really lyrically i don't really use metaphors i'm

12:48 Garvie -hmm. not i just say exactly what i think like i approach lyric quite different to a lot of people now and i'm i'm really envious of you know your dillons and all these people who can create these wonderful All this wonderful imagery, but I just have always just said what I think in the simplest way possible.

13:08 Garvie Mm-hmm. yeah so i guess that's ties in with the music that's what i always try to do so it's

13:15 Garvie For sure. good to hear that it works or it's good to hear that what i'm trying to put across is hopefully coming across to

13:20 Garvie Well, some I think that's super important to be like, this is what the vibe of the project is, this is what the vibe of the songs are and then have like your production and arranging and mixing and performance choices all kind of like reflect that. You're coming from that from like a certain headspace and so you're...

13:36 Garvie just even like the way that you're talking into the microphone should reflect that headspace and I think you do a great job of that I

13:43 Garvie thanks man yeah that's I mean that's one thing I think I've learned been doing music a while I guess and that's and it I always used to think that having something like that would limit me but I think this is one of those cases where actually you you do limit yourself you put yourself in a certain box but that creatively is helpful because actually

14:04 Garvie i i'm once you i feel as i'm starting to create my own sound which i'm really happy with and that is that's helpful in a really lazy way you know well i know what drum sound i'm going to use because i'm already using it on the other songs you know and the synths that i go to and stuff like that which i used to think of that as being not very creative or you know having to change everything every time but actually there's a lot you can do with

14:31 Garvie just one little area of you know on a layer of drums or you know limiting yourself to those bits which i'm sure you know

14:37 Luke F. Walton yourself oh absolutely i mean i do the same thing for mixing your stuff i use similar plugins to the other songs and it's slightly different than the ones that i use for my own music there's a good amount of overlap but there's probably like 10 15 that i'm only using on your stuff rather than my stuff too um and i i think that those they're like color palettes and i think that's what like the new year

14:57 Luke F. Walton or new album cycle it's like the same kind of idea of like okay like what is what is like the addition to that color palette that we're adding in that year you know like how do we one of my my things is um there's a plugin called golfos that is um this like ai equalization thing that um I, I've had, I've had mixed results,

15:19 Luke F. Walton but I finally found the way that I love it and I love it on your music because it adds brightness without adding harshness. Um,

15:25 Garvie Right.

15:25 Luke F. Walton and I can do some really cool stuff with that. Um, so it's like, what is the new spice?

15:30 Luke F. Walton for um do you have do you have anything like that like in your in your head like oh in the future i want to use more synths or i want to like you've been doing a crazy amount of vocal harmonies like i'm really excited about that i feel like that's your spice now is just like stacks you know

15:46 Garvie yeah i don't it's it's one of those things you know you get you do something and then someone's like oh that's cool and

15:53 Luke F. Walton Yes.

15:53 Garvie then you you kind of respond to it so you know i had my some of the earlier songs about they're like oh i like that little vocal bit and i was you know when i wrote that bit i was thinking oh this is way too ott this is silly i shouldn't put this in but i end up putting it and then you you start to get confident and then you start to respond and that's to be honest that's been a process of how my music not

16:13 Luke F. Walton I love it.

16:13 Garvie that i'm well i mean you want to please people don't you like

16:16 Luke F. Walton Of course.

16:16 Garvie it's it's you know and i think when people start commenting and you think okay well that wasn't too much okay i'll keep going with that so yeah vocals i love ott vocals i just think they're really again it's just i feel like i might as well just go for it and i love singing in falsetto that's one of my favorite things to do i just think it's really fun

16:35 Luke F. Walton Yes,

16:35 Garvie um

16:35 Luke F. Walton I

16:35 Garvie and so i throw in silly falsetto kind of sounds whenever i can i have a voice that doesn't have a break

16:42 Luke F. Walton love that.

16:42 Garvie i can sing lower i can sing high i have i don't have a choice um so and my high sounds extremely harsh and kind of you know so yeah that's i think that might be this year's spice is more More crazy vocals,

16:56 Luke F. Walton good

16:56 Garvie see if I can cram even more in.

16:58 Luke F. Walton yeah do it i mean on this last song you have like pretty please and then the please is like 20 part harmony it fucking floored me man that cracked me up when i first heard it the first time i was like whoa

17:11 Luke F. Walton it's awesome because it's like it's cheeky the the and it's and it's beautiful so it's like both of these things at the same time that like is especially in the context of what you're writing about is almost like this quasi boy band moment where like the whole choir comes out but what they're highlighting isn't like yo baby or like yeah i'm gonna get with you tonight it's like please it's awesome

17:34 Garvie Yeah.

17:34 Luke F. Walton it's like begging your internal self with your boy band of a voice like like stack to to like give pity on your anxious heart it's like hell yeah that if that's that's 2023 right there i love

17:51 Garvie well i'm

17:52 Luke F. Walton it man

17:52 Garvie hearing i'm hearing some cool vocal harmonies coming back actually more maximalist i don't know there's bands in the uk who are called flow who i've been listening to recently but they're like 2023 destiny's child it's like fully like that sound is back seemingly or

18:08 Luke F. Walton Yes, yes.

18:08 Garvie at least and they do it so well i like yeah just all those kind of flourishes i just think they're a lot of fun yeah

18:13 Luke F. Walton Keep bringing it. Keep bringing it. Especially stabbing on random lyrics. That's just so cool. exactly

18:20 Garvie it's not i think yeah it's nice to just make people you know sit up for us anything they can do to make someone sit up when they're listening i think that's something you're really good at too is just like listening to tracks there's little moments where you're like oh okay because you know in the today's music culture and playlists and stuff you've really got to try and do that right Yes. like if

18:41 Luke F. Walton Oh, big time.

18:41 Garvie someone's listening on a spotify playlist you know we all go into passive mode so quickly it is yeah i guess that's i think it's quite important

18:48 Luke F. Walton Yeah, what makes you jump out? But at the same time, like, comfortable enough to get on the playlist where it's not too angular, but you have these moments. It's just like, I gotta add this one. I gotta come back. I can't just let this one go by and never find it again.

19:05 Garvie completely i think my challenge may be bringing things down slightly because i'm not on somebody's playlist yet like i like phenomenal success you're having these players it's really cool man like but it's um yeah that's i hear that a lot as the the wtf factor is what i've heard people talking about is like the you don't you no one wants to hear that song that's so out there and they stop but they stop listening but yeah you've got to

19:32 Garvie Grab their attention in other ways, I guess.

19:34 Luke F. Walton yeah

19:34 Garvie Yeah,

19:34 Luke F. Walton yeah

19:34 Garvie that's

19:34 Luke F. Walton i mean

19:35 Garvie interesting.

19:35 Luke F. Walton it is interesting i mean like it's it's a challenge we're all trying to figure out but it's like you don't you don't want to go too hard in either direction because if you're too wtf at least with your singles you can go there with your album or your your b-sides and stuff um even some of the singles but like the uh if you're too boring or just too like middle of the road then you're just wallpaper um

19:56 Garvie Yeah.

19:57 Luke F. Walton but like you don't want to be so out there that somebody's like i can't even put this in the room you know

20:02 Garvie Yeah.

20:02 Luke F. Walton it's like it doesn't fit this theme um and there's enough playlists now that i'm really excited about that are like weird just weird music and i'm happy that there's there are more venues for weird music weird pop music to uh get legs

20:21 Luke F. Walton Do you think about these things when you write? Do you think about playlists? Do you ever think, oh, this sound could fit in here to

20:28 Luke F. Walton Um,

20:28 Luke F. Walton your music?

20:28 Luke F. Walton yeah, a little bit. Like, there are certain guitar tones that I know people like. and so i do them a little bit more like chorus guitar tones and stuff like that um

20:38 Garvie Yeah.

20:39 Luke F. Walton so like there are a few things they're like i i think it's mostly in terms of tones like i know there are certain bass tones that are really popular in japan right now there's certain bass tones that are really popular in the united states they're not exactly the same like i keep that kind of stuff in mind the parts a little bit less the songwriting a little bit less but definitely the way that things sound i try to keep my finger on that pulse so that i can

21:01 Garvie i can you know do it but also push it a little bit more into kind of what i think sounds really cool and i never like do stuff that i don't like it's just kind of like feeling out like oh people are using this kind of reverb now or people are using this kind of delay and the vocals sound more present or less present or the whole mix is brighter or darker this year all those Yeah.

21:19 Garvie things they just start it's like a constantly moving target that's Yeah. interesting like so you're i know you're producing quite a lot for chai which is so exciting they're a really cool band like what i know you're a big fan of japan generally right you've been there quite a lot and you know i know you're i know you're big into anime and things like that i was curious like what do you think are the big differences between japanese and us or well i guess generally western music i guess we're talking about western influence japanese music but yeah are there big differences or

21:51 Garvie Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There's very big differences. I mean, harmony is very different. Like the whole idea of chord progressions, super, super different. And then from that, that makes the melodies really different. Chai is interesting because they mostly listen to American and British music.

22:10 Garvie Yeah. But they uh they still bring a different sensibility because you know different culture and uh so a lot of the songs they'll give me there's more diminished chords that aren't just like passing they're like a main like we're hanging on this tension chord than that

22:25 Garvie Yeah. you would normally see in just standard pop music there's a lot more like um circular movement that doesn't feel as like five to one or four to one like that we have it's a little bit more like avoiding the one One the one doesn't really have the sense of home as much. It's just kind of like motion rather than

22:45 Garvie Okay. like arrival um so those are big big things and there's there are a few different tones that like people are really into like people are into distorted picked bass like kind of quasi early 90s that i think is going to come back even more in the u.s too but it's definitely taken root a big time in in japan because there's an artist called vandy who uses it a bunch um and also like production style is it's kind of more like what how you're

23:13 Garvie you're producing like way ott like the they will have these sections that'll just be like there's an orchestra now now it's gone now it's hip-hop now it's like and i think part of that's k-pop's influence on j-pop too there's a very interesting conversation going on between japan and korea musically united states and japan and then also japan has got you know 130 million people

23:35 Garvie So they have a big enough music industry to self-support. They don't need anybody else around the world to listen to their music to be wealthy and successful. And so they call it the Galapagos style of music because like...

23:48 Garvie they can just make music for their own and then other people looking at it like why is this so weird why is it so different because it's this Galapagos mentality but I love it and I love having conversations with it and I think just pulling some spices from that kind of what's trending over there into the U.S. is enough for people to be like why does this sound different what's what's up with that it's

24:10 Garvie Completely. all good Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting about them. you know feeling self-sufficient because then that just cuts out the need to worry about what other people are doing

24:22 Garvie It's the opposite of Korea. Like South Korea has got a very small population, so they need the rest of the world to listen. Japan doesn't. And so it creates different styles of music.

24:32 Garvie that's really that's really really interesting I never thought about that at all because Korea obviously does feel like it's super successful now but then maybe it it

24:41 Garvie oh it has is right to be super successful here it's got more need exactly to be and it's part of the government sort of like the government has a vested interest in that being successful so that people come to korea and it's working like more people are learning korea korean more people are going to south korea um it's just it's like canada does the same thing in north america like we uh

25:05 Garvie We spend a lot of, or they spend a lot of money on Canadian acts and tour support and all this kind of stuff from the government. Um, we don't do that in the United States, obviously.

25:16 Garvie we don't do it in the UK either there was there was a campaign in the UK a couple of years ago during COVID telling telling people basically to retrain if they were in the arts essentially yeah it was mad anyway hadn't got still got down that road

25:30 Garvie Yeah, it sounds like, uh, sounds like our, um, somehow our cultures are related. So yeah, I mean, yeah, interesting, interesting cultural stuff.

25:42 Luke F. Walton Is there anything that you find different about UK music versus US music right now?

25:48 Garvie That's a good question. I don't... I don't think about, hmm, that's a really good question because I don't consciously hear music and think

26:01 Garvie categorize about it differently it yep in for the same way that I probably inevitably would about Japanese or Korean music, potentially just because, yeah,

26:08 Garvie language and stuff too is part of it but especially. I think the UK is... the music scene is very it feels like it's very much about being cool or

26:22 Garvie Okay. it felt it feels like that's been the way in the past so that's where the maximalist thing actually in the uk i don't think it happens as often that's a very

26:32 Garvie Yeah. broad statement um No, and i but that's can't speak for everyone what we're here for.

26:35 Garvie yeah yeah um so I have always found that as a difference between you, the UK and the rest of Europe, especially as I've had so many friends who've been, you know, working and making brilliant music, but in the UK people are telling them this isn't cool. And having their managers actively tell them you need to go to Europe because Europe is where they're going to love this.

27:00 Garvie So I guess that's the difference between the UK and Europe. I don't know about the States and the UK. That's an interesting.

27:08 Garvie question because obviously we are quite tight in so many ways as countries generally yeah

27:13 Garvie totally absolutely and it's yeah like i i have the most feeling of like la and new york music's very different um san diego and la music's very different i don't i think i actually sound more la than i do san diego even though i'm from san diego but you know um I don't know, like, I think that there's always been a really deep musical conversation, particularly with, like, the British, like, Soul Revival, Amy Winehouse, and the,

27:43 Garvie you know, I mean, it's still going on with, like, I don't know, Meghan Trainor and Adele, like, there's, like, there's this constant back and forth, and I think that U.S. labels always try to find, like, an answer to the U.K. breakout star and vice versa. Yeah, so I definitely, I think that's a little bit harder.

28:03 Garvie Your point about UK versus Europe is I also feel that like US versus Europe, very different sensibility and vibe.

28:13 Garvie Yeah. Hard to put my finger on it exactly. Maybe it's partially electronics music's influence, but yeah, there's definitely a different audience in Europe and what their expectations are.

28:27 Garvie i think so i think it's more fun in europe and this is i was watching recently a documentary about abba and

28:34 Garvie Cool. that was i think that that's a part of it you know they were talking about you know choruses where it's they're thinking less about the lyrics and lyrics sometimes are a gateway to making music try and make your music sound really cool or music generally sounding really cool whereas obviously abba

28:54 Garvie they they just weren't thinking about as much because it didn't matter that much because they were making music they were well ABBA weren't actually popular in Sweden at all initially they late now they are but they weren't actually loved in Sweden but

28:54 Garvie they they just weren't thinking about as much because it didn't matter that much because they were making music they were well ABBA weren't actually popular in Sweden at all initially they late now they are but they weren't actually loved in Sweden but so they were making choruses that almost didn't make sense and then this extends to the Max Martins and people like that so I Want It That Way was one of the songs they were talking about by the Backstreet Boys which when you think about that chorus I mean it what does it mean it's and they were saying that themselves that was the back

29:23 Garvie the Backstreet Boys

29:23 Luke F. Walton Yes,

29:24 Garvie were saying and

29:24 Luke F. Walton yes.

29:24 Garvie it's just interesting so I guess the lyrical side of it is an interesting point when people speak English or they don't and I think they just want to have fun with things more and that was what these Swedish writers were saying is it doesn't matter what it says just make it fit and sound nice and that's it which I personally think is really important and I would probably place myself more in that

29:47 Garvie side of things just trying to make things as fun as possible yeah Yeah, I get that. And I also think that there's, yeah, there's like a, like K-pop kind of does this too, where the words are more about like carrying the melody and being musically, musical sounding than necessarily the meaning that they're completely conveying, you know, and I don't know, that's interesting. I was feeling that when I was just in Japan of.

30:16 Garvie They're more creative with my language than I am, where I will see things like I got my wife a shirt that says member of fam and it's a bunch of different dogs.

30:28 Garvie and under each of them there is a like little description of what the dog likes and one of them says loves to eat meat and also children but like from from a non-native English speaker perspective it makes perfect sense likes to eat meat and also likes children they're just like I'm just going to transitive property the like but to us they like to eat children that's like clearly is what that's how I bought the shirt because it's

30:56 Garvie because it's like how can i not buy that shirt it's amazing but Yeah. like that i feel like that kind of can go into lyrics too uh it's almost like a strange advantage of somebody approaching a language that isn't just their own you can see these different things and it's in music so Like as long as it's sung well, I can roll with it.

31:18 Garvie yeah i thought well i think there's real value in um this leads on there's something i've been thinking about recently is the song you've just mixed it gets to a point where it sounds a bit like drum and bass and that's something i've been thinking about with writing music recently is what do i not know about and what can i approach not knowing very well so that i can put my own spin on it because sometimes i feel like you can

31:41 Garvie know things too well Yeah. to Yeah, of come up with something creative with which is what I'm trying to do now is look at genres that I don't know anything about and see

31:49 Garvie course. if I can from memory not Mm hmm. listen to that genre and just try and make that genre and see how it sounds because I think that's sometimes how you come up with something really interesting and and different I guess that's something that I've been trying to do recently I don't know if you've ever done anything like that or but I've always looked at people in the past sometimes and almost got bitter potentially at people who don't know a certain genre while coming into it and creating something mad and interesting

32:17 Garvie brilliant brilliant i'm Yeah. thinking what i know about this genre and i'm educated and but then you can actually like lose some creativity with that i think anyway

32:26 Garvie Absolutely. No, I see that. I see that. And like, there is a sweet spot with that where it's like you have enough familiarity that you can be part of that conversation, but maybe you are bringing a different spin to it or maybe.

32:39 Garvie you're just taking just enough of that element like i wouldn't classify your song as a drum and bass song but it definitely has like that kind of beat i mean i've been using that in my stuff too um and last year i was doing some of that and it's not called no worries yes worries and i've got some stuff in the pipe that i i think really fast music is uh is gonna be part of this year's vibe

33:01 Garvie For sure. I think over 150 bpm is like a – we've already seen it, like the Kid LAROI, Justin Bieber song, Charlie Puth songs.

33:13 Garvie Who produced that didn't he yeah generally he's Because he did his own solo song, Light Switch, that had a similar – dun dun dun dun dun

33:23 Garvie It's but 200 or something like it's really fast. yeah Yeah, I don't know yeah exactly where it is.

33:26 Garvie it's Yeah. it's up there so and i think that that's like a response to where we've been in music for a long time of like this very mid-tempo um thing that i like mid-tempo a lot um but i i think that there's there's something around on the horizon i think you're you're onto it too of syncopated snare drums yeah

33:46 Garvie Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It's a lot of fun

33:49 Luke F. Walton It is a lot of fun. I want to talk about the mask stuff. So what led you to decide to do that? How do you feel about it now? How do you feel about it in the future? I'm just curious. As another person that is, you know, I have my mask and it's cool and I think about it a lot, but I've got, you know, I've got mixed feelings now that I'm deeper into this thing about.

34:15 Luke F. Walton Why Mask and what do you like about it? What do you not like about it?

34:19 Garvie Yeah. So yeah, so I guess I started, I used like Instagram filters to put a mask

34:25 Garvie Yeah. on me, but I don't have a physical mask. And the whole project started out, I tried, I was trying to do everything animated,

34:33 Garvie Cool. 8-bit animations, which was a silly idea considering I had no experience of doing it at all. And I don't draw, so somebody else was drawing it for me. It's a guy called Vicente who's in Chile, who's brilliant, who drew the character, the Garvie character.

34:48 Garvie Okay, go. Um, it's interesting. The reason I transitioned to using the mask with the filters was because it was taking too long and the filters are great, but I do.

35:00 Garvie having a mask is it's a really funny one because i think you do hide part of yourself and in

35:06 Garvie Yep. today's world people do actually want to see um emotions and things like that so it's tough i think but at the same there's some people who really resonate it resonates with and there's some people who it doesn't as much um

35:22 Garvie so yeah I don't know what you think about it but it might be partly insecurity as well if I'm being really honest Oh, you know like from from me not from anyone else but like you know like feeling like I need to hide myself away because I used to release music under my own first name my full name and everything just felt very personal when it didn't go well so I like the idea of having an alter ego

35:47 Garvie but i'm trying to now put my face out there a bit um i don't know if that's good or bad i have no idea um

35:53 Garvie Yeah. because i do think there's some things you you do out on in your marketing and in your um and you and your fans i guess the people who like you know they want to see you and sometimes they want to see a person you know um A human.

36:08 Garvie Yeah. But what do you think about it? I don't know. So one of the things, so I've been performing live more and that's been the. weirdest wrinkle for me it was it's like one thing to make videos with it or take photos with it but it's another thing to like actually be performing live in front of an audience and have them not be able to really see your emotions in

36:28 Garvie Yeah. real time also without having like a big production behind you that also makes a little bit trickier because like if you have backup dances you have all this like lighting and stuff it's a little bit less personal there's a little bit more of like a focus on the entire production rather than just a focus on you

36:43 Garvie but at the level where i'm at i mean it's like me and a guitar maybe me like me playing guitar that's it or maybe me with a drummer and that's it i don't have the funds to have a whole thing or nor the venues to do that and so i i feel like i need to use my body more to convey my emotions but my hands are already busy having to like carry the whole set and so i um

37:09 Garvie and also it's really hard to credit to Slipknot I did not realize how hard it would be to play live sets with like basically no peripheral vision I have the this mask that cuts off everything so I can't see my hands at all I didn't

37:23 Garvie That's even think I looked a good at point. my hands I didn't think I looked I thought I thought I like transcended that I was like oh I'm a guitarist I'm good or bassist whatever I don't need to look but I secretly am looking the entire time just out of the corner of my eye And also I play different instruments and they all have different fret sizes. And

37:39 Garvie Yeah. so that scale length change between instruments is disorienting without some peripheral vision help. So I actually think it's hurting the way that the music sounds because I'm focused on that. And then the mask surrounds my voice a little bit. So then when I'm playing live, it's got a little bit of this sound.

37:58 Garvie There's just all these interesting problems that I didn't really foresee until I was thrown into the heat of battle. battle with

38:05 Garvie Yeah, like that makes so much sense. right so Yeah. i don't know what i'm going to

38:10 Garvie So do yet but uh it's just it's just an interesting new year reflection i guess like

38:15 Garvie we what to do might see who your face one day soon, knows maybe. i mean i don't have a problem with showing my face it was just kind of like that this is what that project was and um i also don't want to like hurt the character either but i mean

38:29 Garvie it's always been me so i don't know well we got some we got some stuff to figure out Both

38:35 Garvie Yeah, yeah, of us. yeah.

38:37 Luke F. Walton So what are your plans for this year? I'm excited to hear.

38:41 Garvie I'm going to make at least two records. First one is called Moonlight Beach, which is after my home beach. And then the second one is called Mobius Strip. And that one is going to, they're kind of like foils from each other. So Moonlight Beach is going to be a lot poppier, happier, lighter, catchier. And then the Mobius stuff is going to be a lot more.

39:02 Garvie be a lot more like dancey dark um and uh like destructive um and so that's kind of how i'm painting the entire year he's got this very light record this very dark record and then some stuff in between that kind of leads you from one to the next um and so that's what i'm thinking thematically i work really well with like big themes uh for records it helps like carry me and then i can find gaps um um

39:29 Garvie in a record to inform what my singles will be so like if i look at the record and go okay everything's like 120 bpm let's do some faster let's do some slow everything's in 4-4 let's do some stuff that's in 12-8 or you know like they everything can kind of play off of each other and inform like the next thing that i'm going to do um and i'm pretty close to finishing that first record so that that should come out in may or june um with you know singles leading up to it and then the mobius one should come out in fall

39:55 Garvie um yeah so a lot of it's still very much work in progress but i'm i'm collecting tunes i'm building references i'm uh i bought some plugins and some different stuff that i'm gonna try and you know turn into something yeah

40:11 Garvie Yeah, so you can't see you come out of an album with a theme always always there's at least something there's usually something that is like a something that i have to um

40:22 Garvie like hit so like with koan my last one i my idea was there are four sides of a record like a double record and then side one and side three and side two and side four relate to each other in some way so that i created like this framework where now i finished the side one and side two now it's time for side three i'm going to listen really hard to side one to figure out what i need to do inside three to like answer that to balance it

40:50 Garvie I see. these little they're mostly like tricks i think of like trying to stimulate creativity and keep me going but those things are like invaluable to keep up my pace because then i have a roadmap something to like tackle yeah

41:04 Garvie Yeah. Like we talked earlier about, I guess, limiting things yeah in some creative

41:08 Garvie way. limits that create opportunities um Yeah. and ones that i'm okay with like it doesn't have to be perfect like i don't you know

41:16 Garvie if one of the songs does not directly match its equivalent whatever i'm not going to stress that much but it's like it's within that framework i can still have angular things within the framework but yeah that's kind of how i think

41:29 Garvie That's really interesting, and I'm learning that's that's something I need to think about I think

41:33 Garvie well there's also like there there are different types of records like the koan one i wanted everything to flow but i didn't necessarily want it to flow in a way that was like you put it on at a party and you just wanted it maybe like more personal like some songs you could put in a playlist but then the overall record would not be something you would just like press play and hang out with friends um but i'm trying to do the opposite with mobius where that one is going to be like

41:59 Garvie a quasi 40 minute live set that'll just flow and be danceable and take you from one place to another um and then moby uh then uh moonlight beach is going to be single single single single single like standard pop record like not

42:14 Garvie Yeah. a bunch of transitions or anything like that just like the opposite of what mobius will be yeah uh

42:21 Garvie Yeah. And you mentioned earlier about writing singles after. -huh An album that's really interesting to me.

42:29 Luke F. Walton How do you, how does that work?

42:30 Garvie So I'll write a few things. So I usually will start off by writing a few singles, then I'll start to sketch out what the album looks like, figure out the contours of it, maybe write some B sides and then from there be like, okay, what else does this record need as like anchor points, and then write some singles to like those gaps of saying like

42:47 Garvie like i don't want the whole record to sound like this what what contrast do i need to add something faster something slower something brighter something darker um more major more minor more dissonant more simple um i just try and like check all of those boxes all the different contrasts so that um it still sounds like a record but there's there's enough variety that you're not just gonna listen to the same song 12 times and then you know go into the next one

43:14 Garvie yeah yeah yeah that's really interesting to me i'm i'm quite a singles person uh

43:19 Garvie i -huh uh don't i don't think about music like that at all i don't think about albums or the ebb and flow of albums i'm just a i have a short attention span so i just think about songs just one by one yeah

43:29 Luke F. Walton And that probably fits the moment a lot better than the way that I think, you know, like, that's, that's the, I get rewarded way more for my singles than my albums, but I don't know if I can make singles without albums. So I make albums, you know.

43:42 Garvie okay that makes sense so that's how it fits in for you yeah that's super interesting um i kind of wish i thought more like you because i think you go a lot deeper than i do but um yeah i'm just completely surface level

43:57 Garvie no you'll you'll watch you'll see you'll see how these tunes will they'll start to coalesce i know you have common themes and then you'll watch they're going to turn into a record and then you're going to be like okay what do i need to balance this guy out where are those moments of minimalism that creates contrast from one song to the next you'll

44:14 Garvie Yeah. you'll you'll find that but i like i like the the track you're on stay on the single train and then you're gonna blow up and then then it's time for the that record with uh ebbs and flows

44:25 Garvie Yeah, yeah, yeah. well we'll see watch this space yeah

44:28 Luke F. Walton Yeah, let's talk. I want to talk BBC. I'm super curious as an American too to like understand BBC One, BBC Six. What does that all mean? Are they just different radio channels? And then also I'd love to hear from you about decisions being on BBC One and kind of the significance of that. So yeah.

44:49 Garvie so decisions to say we released that last year and this was Scoob's first song that he makes for me and yeah I was really pleased with the whole thing like so we managed to get that one onto Radio One so Radio One in the UK um the BBC radio stations are quite big but Radio One is sort of considered the quite big kind of youth one so it's actually because because the BBC is actually government backs

45:17 Garvie Yep. well we pay license fees but it is affiliated with the government in Okay. a way they literally will radio one's audience is like 16 to 30 i think and they'll literally do that with their presenters they'll start kicking out presenters when they get too old or whatever is that they you know they're they have to appeal to a certain age um and so jack saunders was the is a dj who's in the current slot that once a long time ago zane lowe was in and you

45:43 Garvie Yeah, know various people so he's a really great dj really nice yeah, guy yeah.

45:45 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

45:45 Garvie so i'm really he really knows his music and he talks about it in a way that i really love um and yeah he invited me on for an interview which was super cool we chat about game boy and and

45:57 Garvie It was awesome. went It was great. wildly off topic and but um yeah so he seems like it which is really really cool so hopefully you know we can get some stuff through in future and he'll he'll keep keep supporting but

46:09 Garvie Absolutely. yeah so it was really great to get their support but and then BBC Radio 6 is a more alternative one um so I'd probably say chai they'll probably get more I imagine they'll get more BBC Radio 6 play than BBC Radio 1 I don't know but that's it's a more slightly more left field radio six um

46:26 Luke F. Walton Cool.

46:26 Garvie you you have all sorts of music on it but it's seen as more alternative which is a cool station too uh yeah but and the other ones in between are not BBC Radio 3 is classical um

46:36 Luke F. Walton Okay.

46:36 Garvie and BBC Radio 2 is more like mainstream pop like easy listening more that kind of vibe but yeah yeah

46:45 Luke F. Walton And are these like UK-wide? You can hear these same stations?

46:50 Garvie Okay. yeah yeah all over the uk i mean worldwide if you're on the internet obviously

46:54 Luke F. Walton Yeah, right.

46:54 Garvie they're all broadcasts yeah uk-wide Very cool. Very, very cool. Yeah, that was super exciting. I had known of Jack Saunders from... I think he played Lou Roy, which is an artist that I collaborated with on an ABBA cover.

47:08 Garvie yeah And so I was familiar, I was already following him. I was like, oh, cool, it's that guy with the blue hair or whatever. Yeah.

47:14 Garvie yeah yeah i think it's red now i'm sure it was blue it was blue whenever you saw him probably yeah yeah yeah no that was really cool but honestly i'd say so much that the mix was so cool i think it's It was a big, big part of that.

47:28 Garvie I'm so glad. So yeah, so there's an achievement I'm so glad. for both of us, you know.

47:32 Luke F. Walton Yeah. One last point, and then I'll let you go. I want to talk about reverb. So can you tell everybody what you told me when we were first digging into mix about your opinion of this washy roominess? Reverb

47:50 Garvie yeah in music. i just don't i just i don't like reverb this you know and so you people will not want to hear the mixes that i you know the things i send to scoop because i've got to be honest scoop at this point when i'm making a song i just i just don't think about it i just think well scoop will do something with that scoop will make that palatable i won't worry about finding reverb that sounds good because anytime i put reverb on anything it sounds to me it just sounds

48:16 Garvie rubbish i Yeah. like things being immediate i like things being in your face and you are you're correct on this like there's there's no question about who's right and

48:24 Garvie wrong No, you're no, no, right no, no, no, because no, no, not you at were all. talking no no but you so you were talking about things being you know bringing things to the foreground and then leaving something to the background and completely

48:37 Garvie But those are two different you can't things. be doing that with Those are two different things. And I really like the challenge of what you give me. to me because like what i what i'm looking at now is not saying okay how can i create this room to create dimension which is the easy way that's the cop-out it's how

48:50 Garvie Yeah, do i create yeah like blurriness to create depth rather than just like throw it in a reverb like wash it out it's like and that's been a really fun challenge because like some things i'll make less present um at sometimes and i'll have them kind of pull in and out of focus like i'm thinking of it very much more like a camera

49:07 Garvie were in like i do use a little bit of room sounds but almost zero reverb on your music and that is i loved that challenge like drop the gauntlet right on the beginning don't use this entire plug-in section it's like hell yeah let's figure that out and it's been really fun and i think i think it creates really unique music where it's a lot more present and um it's uh yeah it's it's a different

49:34 Garvie not quite sterile but like yeah it's like it's like tickling the speakers in a way that just makes me feel like i'm in a otherworldly space

49:47 Garvie Yeah. Well, I didn't realize I'd told you not to use it, but I love that you're literally

49:53 Garvie that's not what i've using heard that's it. not exactly what you said but that's what i heard it's good

49:57 Luke F. Walton But now I'm interested. So how are you creating the space then without reverb?

50:00 Garvie um it's so delays are a great great way to do it because delays are one half of reverb well you can even think that reverb is just a series of delays because it's just the reflections of sound um it's like that's that's the easy way

50:15 Garvie But the biggest ways through EQ compression saturation and creating presence or lack thereof of

50:25 Garvie whether or not something sounds like this and it's really tight or sounds a little bit more like this and it's farther away,

50:30 Garvie Yeah. that kind of stuff of like putting the hands over the instruments slightly to pull them back or to define their frequency spectrum or their frequency range in such a way that like when the vocal is happening, there's a dynamic compressor that is interacting with the vocal and that track.

50:47 Garvie So like the acoustic guitar sometimes I'll do that for you where like every time you sing the acoustic guitar comes back a little bit. a little bit and then

50:52 Garvie yeah when you stop singing the acoustic guitar comes back out anything that like fights in that kind of way so then it creates fuzziness and depth or at least that's the goal

51:01 Garvie yeah no it's yeah it clearly you're clearly doing well at it yeah i didn't even think about the reverb i'm going to listen back now hear the the lack of that

51:10 Garvie Yeah, yeah I'm trying. I'm trying. You did give me, to be fair, though, in this most recent song, you did give me a few tracks that had reverb printed on them. And I was like, damn, this is some personal growth. I'm just kidding.

51:22 Garvie i'm learning it's that's that's my that's my goal for this year is to to bear with reverb yeah yeah to

51:29 Garvie No, learn to no, no. live with it Redefine it. Find the reverb that suits you. There's a really cool plugin that I have used on your stuff a little bit. It's called It's called RUM, R-U-M, and it's just like a room reverb. And

51:41 Garvie Yeah. it's nice because it doesn't sound like the classic, like throw it into a chamber or it's in a big hall or it's in a plate. It's like, no, this, you click on it and it sounds like it's in a kitchen or you click on this one, it sounds like it's in a living room. And it is just just enough that you can blend in sometimes that gives it like realism without giving

52:00 Garvie Yeah. it reverb. Yeah. that's really interesting to I'll look look. for that and you mentioned the Valhalla which I did

52:06 Garvie Yeah. buy but I've yet to install it in Logic so I'll do that I've been putting it off clearly but

52:11 Garvie Yeah. I've made an investment in reverb okay Good. I Yeah. spent $50 That's a big

52:14 Garvie so step. I'm That's a big step. learning The Valhalla one is cool too because it has an ambience setting and I don't even really know what that is, but it doesn't quite sound like reverb. It's like a... Maybe it is like a delay or a chorus kind of thing, but it just creates like width and space and depth without really creating like the sense of I'm in an elevator or I'm in a Taj Mahal, you know, like

52:40 Garvie Yeah. that was one of my old mixing engineers, the guy that helped teach me, he used this reverb called Altiverb all the time, which I've never been able to afford because it's like $1,000, but it.

52:49 Garvie Is everything that I don't like about reverb and I know everything that you don't like about reverb because it is like it's I'm going to drop your mix inside of the biggest theater in the world, you know, it's just like it sounds really good, but it's not. not my vibe and i know it's not yours so

53:09 Garvie yeah no it's definitely not it's good it's good to tell your mixing engineers though that'd be like because you know sometimes a mixing engineer will go with the easiest thing they'll be like oh throw it in a room and um and then you get it back and be like what the hell is this sounds like crap

53:23 Garvie yeah well that's that's what i do like about having a mix my music you know because i i know you obviously through instagram messages essentially okay

53:31 Garvie Yeah, yeah we do chat so it is nice to to take that bit of time isn't it's a chat and yeah that's something i've learned um i think through this is it's cool to have that because otherwise yeah you know when you're just looking at people and you just find someone online just you think they're good and you just throw them a mix or the relationship is a big part of the of what works and what doesn't and so

53:54 Garvie Yeah, try and I'm giving advice and don't know if I'm in position to but yeah on that maybe I would say to anyone You know try and meet the people you're you're working with if you don't already know them

54:04 Garvie no because I that's think that great it's it's really helpful. Yeah great and and like you giving me playlists of what you're listening to um i like i like that a lot better than references for an individual song uh like what what do you think sounds cool just in general not like what do you think sounds cool as in this is what i want this song to exactly sound like Just like what are you listening to that's that's more helpful to me as a mixing engineer producer whatever's

54:29 Garvie just like like try does the same thing where they'll just send me you know here's like my 10 favorite songs right now then i'll just listen to that playlist like 40 times and be like okay i get it i'm in the

54:39 Garvie yeah headspace well you know that that kind of thing is good yeah i've got to say i've never understood references with mixing because i've had people say that before like the mastering reference it's like what do you want its sound what do you want the master sound like what it's called like well good i don't understand what you're asking me because it's it's a completely different song

54:56 Garvie I And know. like, I never understood that. So yeah, And I it's think this way works a lot better.

55:00 Garvie a lot of anxiety as an artist to be like, this is what I want my song to sound like. It's not an exact science. So you end up listening to hours and hours of music trying to find the perfect reference and then you're not quite happy with it.

55:17 Garvie and it feels like a big moment sending It over is. because you're like well if i send this you know what if i've sent the wrong reference and then the song's gonna turn out worse any any choice you know i don't want to make those kind of choices you know it's just like just make the song yeah like it's exactly what you said i would personally feels like the best way to me as an artist not as a mixer so

55:37 Garvie I agree. yeah No, I agree. I agree. I mean, like. and it gives a certain level of trust of like make it sound modern and current and good you

55:45 Garvie Yeah. know um i mean i'd made that mistake once with the mastering engineer i sent them a track and it was darker than the mix and it wasn't but it was like darker but in a more mid-rangey way less of like a low-end big hip-hop kind of way and then

56:02 Garvie Yeah. I got back to master and I was like well I hate this but it was my own fault because I sent the I didn't know what I was doing and you know I was I sent over something that I liked I like the way this song hit but it was not not even remotely in the same world is what I was looking for but I didn't know

56:18 Garvie Yeah. that at the time so yeah I think that's really good advice and I think those are good things that I mean people at every stage it's like how do you work with other people in the team especially as a mixing engineer I mean that's like a really precious thing you're saying is like hey I've worked hours and hours on making this thing turn it into something that is going to go on the radio and it's like woo I mean I don't want to screw that up I want to treat that with

56:42 Garvie the appropriate preciousness but also like elevate it in the way that like I have a musical sensibility but carrying what you have it's a tricky job and we

56:54 Luke F. Walton Completely.

56:55 Garvie have to work together in order to accomplish it Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

57:00 Luke F. Walton Sweet. Awesome Garvie. Super, super fun chatting. We got to do this again. Maybe we'll do another check-in after you've hit all of the airwaves from radio one to 55 with your classical record and your easy listening pop record.

57:20 Garvie Sounds great. Sounds great. Let's do it.

57:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah, I really appreciate chatting and I... I hope that people enjoyed what we had to say. If you have any comments or anything like that, our Instagrams are open. What is your Instagram handle again?

57:36 Garvie It's at Garvie sounds and Garvie is G-A-R-V-I-E

57:40 Luke F. Walton Awesome. So yeah, reach out. It's scoobertdoobert.pizza for me. And we'll be trying to do more of these podcasts here in this new year, talking to more musicians and breaking down music, hopefully open up some worlds. So thanks for joining. Awesome.

57:56 Garvie Nice one, Miss Goop. See ya.