Taste, Intuition and the Dunning-Kruger Effect in Music

0:02 What's up guys, it's Scoobert Doobert, I'm back, today is actually just gonna be a solopod because I was on vacation for the first time in a long, long time and it was prettycool I actually got to do some introspection, some deep thought in the mountains and from

0:30 that I wanted to talk about a very esoteric subject today, something that I've struggledwith to be completely honest for a long, long time and that's intuitive learning.So like when I was a kid, I was obsessed with books, understandably, that's what a lotof kids do, is like they get into something, one of my things was reading and in part

0:55 because I thought, you know, once I had access to a book, I'd be able to pick up anything.You know, there's the world's knowledge at your fingertips, so to speak, and like youaccess that book, you access that knowledge and then you're able to do that thing.And I didn't realize how wrong I was until I started learning Japanese.

1:17 Japanese was the ultimate version of, yeah, you're not gonna get all this from a book.You're going to have to pick it up like through Osmosis because it's so different, there'sno real ground to jump off of in the same way that like maybe learning Spanish or somethingwould be, I only know a little bit of Spanish, but it feels different at least to me.

1:40 Learning a language that the grammar and the alphabet and all those things are so foreignto what I'm used to.And that's exciting because it ends up kind of forcing me to think about culture differently,to think about myself differently, to think about language differently.All of these fundamental things that you just kind of take for granted, it has forcedme to reexamine.And why do I bring all of this up?

2:06 In the context of music, I think that there are a few, few things that can only be learned,but cannot be taught.You cannot be taught this, it can only be learned.It sounds like a Zen koan, or just like babbling nonsense.But the idea is, you can't just do it by reading a book or by listening to a podcast,you have to do it by doing it.And in the process of doing it, you're going to get better.

2:37 That's part of the reason why I advocate so much for like having a large body of workor for finishing things or making a lot of stuff, is there are so many things along theway that somebody couldn't just impart to you through logic.Logic has limits.It sets you on the path, but the path itself has to be determined by you, especially ifyou're making something that is subjective.

3:02 So like, how do you establish that intuitive learning?And how do you get into that state where you're developing your taste or you're developingyour intuition?Because I think those two things are basically the same thing.You have a taste for something.What does that mean?It's like you've cultivated a sense of goodness, and of course is completely subjective, maybenot completely, but more or less objective.

3:30 Where based on the inputs that you are receiving, you have a different expectation of your output.So for example, I had Luke on from his band, great, good, fine, okay.And I've been listening to his music and his mixes and they're making me a better mixingengineer because he's so good at what he does.

3:56 But in order to understand what he's doing, I need to come to him with a certain understandingof the tools.If I was not able to mix myself, most of that stuff would go over my head.In the same way, picture talking to a three-year-old or a four-year-old, not to belittle peoplebut to say, I was there two, three years ago.I was like a three-year-old as a mixing engineer.

4:24 You can only impart so much knowledge to a three-year-old because they just don't have that vocabulary.In the same way, picture talking to somebody that's not a native speaker of whatever languageis your native language.There are certain things that when you're talking to a native speaker, you're able to justkind of like accept and you don't have to explain everything.

4:45 Carl Sagan talks about this when somebody asked him explain magnets and he's like, well,I don't know, how can I possibly do that because I don't understand from which foundationI'm allowed to jump off of.If it's like, explain like I'm five, there is no foundation so you have to start fromthe very beginning.You have to talk about fundamental forces of nature or maybe even show it if they've

5:09 never experienced a magnet before, all of these things.But if you're talking from one astrophysicist to another, there are all of these differentthings that are intuitively known that you don't explicitly have to say.You're just able to implicitly reference.It's the same thing with like music and mixing all this kind of stuff.Once you understand a certain vocabulary, once you've done it enough, you're able

5:31 to gather more information from those other sources as you're experiencing them.Another example, as a guitarist, I wasn't able to hear the same way that I can hearnow.And a ton of musicians will tell you this, particularly with something called articulation.So the way that a note is attacked, people say all the tones and the fingers, that'sin my opinion, that's what they mean by that.

5:57 The tones in the way that the hands are working together to create a certain typeof articulation and flow and phrasing.That's the single hardest thing, at least it was for me, as a beginning guitarist to understandlike what other people were doing.And I'm still getting there with bass, like I'm getting better, and I'm able to hearmore and more.

6:19 It's like the more, you know, the Dunning Kruger effect, I think that's what I wastalking about, where in the beginning of starting anything, you think you're amazingat it because you don't understand the scope of what other people are doing.It's like you start playing music, you're like, I'm the best ever, I'm going to be thebest musician ever.

6:41 And then you hit this hit of despair once you get good enough to realize how much yousuck.But the key to getting out of that hit of despair is acceptance and plowing ahead andworking on it because it's not, you're not just going to think your way out of it, you'regoing to have to do your way out of it, you're going to have to play your way out of it.

7:01 In that, you need to pick up these little things, these intuitions on the instrument thatyou don't think about.Like when you talk about muscle memory, it's even deeper than that.It's like a spiritual memory because it's not your muscles that are doing this.It's like a deeper sense of self.You are in the same way that I'm speaking right now, I'm not thinking about the rulesof grammar.

7:24 Obviously I'm breaking some of them because that's what native speakers do.They break them in the right ways.It's the same thing with music.You break the rules in the same way because you intuitively deep down understand whatthose expectations are.That's a better word than rules, expectations.That's really what we're dealing with.Because I play a major scale and at the end you expect me to resolve.

7:48 I start a sentence and you expect me to finish it because those are the rules of the game.Those are the expectations, but we can break them.I can start a sentence and be like, actually, no, let's talk about this.There's an expectation for how to break out of a sentence, how to interrupt yourself.This is what I'm talking about.All these little things that, oh my God, it's an impossible amount to explain, but it's

8:15 not an impossible amount to absorb.When you're cultivating tastes, and this is something I'm trying to do on a daily basis.I'm not trying to say I'm an arbiter of taste.I'm just trying to say, this is what I'm doing.You approach things that you respect with respect and with deference.

8:37 You look at them, you listen to them, and you do so critically in a way that you say,how would I have done that?There's a classic producer thing.It's like how many guitarists take to screw in a light bulb or one of those stupid jokes.It's the same thing with producers who are mixing engineers.You listen to it and you go, okay, how would I have accomplished this or how would I havedone it better?

9:02 But the best part is, is when you approach something, you go, I don't know how I would havedone that, and there's no way I would have done it better.That's the stuff to expose yourself to, because then you're always at that limit of taste.Then you're growing.You're always pacing yourself a little bit by finding people that do it better, likeLil Nas X.Those mixes are good.

9:25 Anyway, I think the key to all of this is to accept that your logic can only go so farand accept the only way to gain intuition is to by being a part of the game.You don't become a good basketball player just by watching tape.

9:48 You don't become a good Japanese speaker just by reading a textbook or talking to yourself.You have to interact with others.Others that are more native than you and whatever the thing is, or more developed thanyou and whatever the thing is.By doing that, you're going to take a bit subconsciously of what they're doing, and I wouldargue that is just as important, if not more important than flashcards or scales or all

10:16 the fundamentals, still important stuff, of course, but fundamentals on their own are kindof worthless.Starting when to deploy them, that's the secret sauce, like Kobe, Rest in Peace.Kobe had some of the best footwork I've ever seen on basketball court, because you'reable to do all this stuff, but you knew when to deploy it.There are plenty of guys that do a bunch of footwork drills, but then again in the game,

10:43 they don't know what to do.That's what I'm saying.You get on the gig or you're just going to play scales, like no, you need to know whento deploy those different scales and how to phrase them and how to play with others andall these other things that come from intuition.

11:03 Listen to great stuff, pace yourself and accept that it's like a long journey, it's a lifelong journey, and put yourself out there, realize you're going to fail and fail often andfail hard, but that's the best way to gain intuition, I think, is by being embarrassed.And by failure, because it cuts deeper.

11:30 So put yourself out there, you're going to get slapped, you're going to get smacked down,and those are the moments of growth, it's gross growth, both.So yeah, with that, go listen to some music, and if you think everything that you're hearinglike, oh, I'm so much better than that, maybe you're at that top of that Dunning Kruger curve

11:54 and just wait for yourself to come back down, because there's always somebody better thanyou, and that's the beauty of it, there's always room to grow.So let's go out today and grow together, Scoobert Doobert out.