An Interview with Kelley Baker

3:42 Luke F. Walton What's good, everybody? I am Scoobert Doobert. Welcome back to Love Music More. I am joined with Kelley Baker. Welcome to the pod.

3:49 Kelley Baker Hey, thank you for having me.

3:50 Luke F. Walton It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to talk to you specifically about sound designing and then having a diverse career because I think both of those things are such just large important subjects for people to understand what it's really like to be an artist to be able to develop a career that you know a lot of people might not even know exists or no audio is manipulated and and people can make make money doing it make an impact doing it so I'm so excited.

4:16 Luke F. Walton decided to dig into that with you awesome

4:17 Kelley Baker Very cool. I'm looking forward to this.

4:20 Luke F. Walton let's just start it off i was reading your bio i saw some of my favorite films on there goodwill hunting Finding Forrester classic classic films in addition to my own private idaho and todd haynes is film far from heaven i would love to talk about what sound designing is and how it is distinct from like film scoring what are your goals and kind of

4:43 Luke F. Walton What is that just for somebody that maybe has seen that credit on a movie, but they don't actually know what goes into it?

4:50 Kelley Baker Basically, the composers, the music people, that's all they do. And so as a sound designer, it used to be supervising sound editor, but now sound designer is much more generally accepted. I work with the dialogue. I also work with all the effects. I work with the music and come up with suggestions on things that would be great to have. And sometimes if we have a film where, like my own Private Idaho, we had music.

5:16 Kelley Baker from other sources we didn't have a composer per se on that film I gotta remember all this that's a while ago but we did bring in Bill Frizzell to do some pedal steel work but we were pulling music and from you know from a lot of different places and so in that instance I'm making suggestions you know we talked there's this one scene where the kids are on this street corner it's kind of a pickup thing at night and the music we use is an old Moody Valley cut Deep Night

5:42 Kelley Baker and you know that's from the mid-1920s late 1920s you know not your obvious choice but it's creepy it had exactly the feel that we wanted that worked out really well but what a lot of people don't understand is when they go out and shoot a movie all they're trying to do is get the dialogue All the sound effects, all that stuff we add later and we will change things up and I do sound design on documentaries,

6:09 Kelley Baker on dramatic films, whatever is because and I feel especially with my own film work that you can say so much in a scene by what's going on with the sound, the sound effects, the backgrounds, what you choose to use and what you choose to bring up or drop down.

6:25 Kelley Baker Like I said they go out and Because if you've got two people walking down the street, they're doing everything they can not to record the street sounds because I can manipulate those and add those in easier.

6:39 Kelley Baker then what they've got really my big focus for anybody who's on a location is get the dialogue as clean as possible because we can do what's called looping or ADR the dialogue it never sounds as good because the actors are not in the moment they're not you know in character you bring them back to the studio later and sometimes that's months later and try to get them to replicate that feeling

7:06 Kelley Baker Some actors are great at it, some of them not so much. As a sound designer, like I said, I feel like I get to work with all the elements. Now, you mentioned To Die For was the first time I got to work with Danny Elfman and I'm a huge fan.

7:19 Luke F. Walton Yes,

7:19 Kelley Baker He's a really, really nice guy.

7:22 Luke F. Walton that's

7:22 Kelley Baker He's a lot of fun.

7:22 Luke F. Walton great to hear.

7:24 Kelley Baker Yeah, and he had a lot of his own ideas, but we would talk, we talked out about, you know, I think this scene is going to work really well with music, but this scene, can we just go with effects? A music editor friend of mine, Ken Carmen, who's done a lot of wonderful stuff, he has always said, you know, I would rather hear no music than music poorly placed or the wrong music. And I think that that's real true.

7:49 Kelley Baker More and more we're getting too many films that are wall-to-wall music. And that doesn't get you anything as far as for emotions and going up and down the whole roller coaster. But so I do a little bit of everything with all of that stuff. And like I said, a lot of it depends on when we did Far From Heaven, the composer on that, and Bernstein, Elmer Bernstein, I never even got to meet him. He had these ideas and he was 90 something, I think was the last one that he actually completed.

8:19 Kelley Baker actually composed

8:19 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

8:20 Kelley Baker and he taught and basically said do whatever you want we'll make it work and you know and it was a pleasure to to work with this music like i said i didn't even get to meet him which bummed me out i'm a huge fan of his but his music was so spot on for he totally understood what the film was about and so you know you you get those things those those composers that are wonderful and you get composers that you know you want to tear your hair out

8:45 Kelley Baker Right, that's right.

8:46 Luke F. Walton That's great. I'd love to zoom in on kind of each step of that process a little bit. Let's just talk dialogue real quickly. What are some of the common problems? What are some of the common fixes? Like how much do you end up having to like do and massage that dialogue to really make it speak? And at what point do you go, hey, we got ADR this. There's no saving it.

9:05 Kelley Baker Right. You know, with all these big blockbusters that are out there now, a lot of those things that do have to ADR because when you've got explosions going off and all this other stuff, you're not going to be able to hear what people are saying. My buddy Gary did Saving Private Ryan.

9:21 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

9:22 Kelley Baker So, you know, you've got that whole opening scene

9:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

9:24 Kelley Baker where they're storming the beach, you know, yet none of the dialogue, I think very little of the dialogue, any of it was actually used. And Gary was actually on set with a couple of speakers.

9:33 Kelley Baker blowing you know sending out um explosions and gunfire and all this stuff to help create the mood which

9:40 Luke F. Walton is Yeah,

9:40 Kelley Baker pretty cool

9:40 Luke F. Walton that is cool.

9:41 Kelley Baker yeah gary does a lot of amazing stuff he's spielberg's guy he's done all sorts of stuff like that but for me with the dialogue it's about performance and cleanliness you want it to be really clear because without good dialogue you know you got nothing and so we always look at adr as a lab

10:00 Kelley Baker last resort if we can use that performance because you're getting it on set and the actors are really feeling it you know then that's what you want that's what's going to sell the performance with all of that a wonderful thing that i've pointed out forrest gump which i did not work on forrest gump there's a scene when robin wright gets really pissed off and she's throwing rocks and the windows are breaking on the thing it's a brilliant scene and they did that in one take

10:30 Kelley Baker because it was such a heavy-duty emotional thing for her I mean they said at the end of that take she was drained she put her all into it there's a wonderful scene I love that scene but the sound recordist came up and said we got a problem she's distorted And they went back and they listened, and certainly there was distortion on her audio track, because when you're rolling sound in the middle of a take,

10:56 Kelley Baker you can't start adjusting your levels. You know, you've got to ride it, you do what you think is best. And they misjudged, which happens, they didn't know she was going to go that over the top.

11:06 Luke F. Walton Yes.

11:06 Kelley Baker And after listening to it, they made the decision, there's no way they could get her to take two. I mean, she was emotionally drained and there's no way you can ADR that. Right. It's not going to sound right. And so when you see the film, that piece is still in there and is still partially distorted. Nobody ever notices it except for, you know, some guys like us.

11:29 Kelley Baker You kind of have to watch the performance and see what's going on in the emotion. And that to me determines whether you really need to ADR or not. Now, sometimes, you know, a car will pass by in the middle of a take, whatever it is, you know, and you're stuck with those things. But we have a lot of filters and a lot of things we can do now to get rid of a lot of stuff.

11:51 Kelley Baker But my joke is always, but we don't have a performance filter.

11:54 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

11:55 Kelley Baker We can't up the performance. So really that's what with dialogue, I'm always looking at how clean is this? Because, you know, I always say that the only people who really care about audio in a movie is the audience. Because if they can't hear it, and we've all walked out of films

12:13 Luke F. Walton Yes.

12:13 Kelley Baker where it's like, what the hell are they talking about? You know, it's like, well, audiences will overlook bad lighting, poor camera, they'll overlook out of focus shots. But if they can't understand dialogue, you're done.

12:27 Kelley Baker And so I think that's how I approach dialogue is always with sound design dialogue to me is number one, even though a lot of people don't consider that sound design, you've got to have that right and then you pull everything else in.

12:40 Luke F. Walton That's great. It makes me think of Dark Knight Rises with Bane. They had to go back in ADR because they did test screenings and nobody could understand Mr. Batman. Nobody got it.

12:50 Kelley Baker Oh, God, that happens a lot.

12:53 Luke F. Walton So do you kind of go through that too where maybe you'll do a test screening and then get notes and then have to change that before the theatrical release?

13:01 Kelley Baker If you're doing a big Hollywood film, I'm contractually, you know, I have to do screenings.

13:06 Kelley Baker and that's fine to see how things are working the joke with To Die For was we did like nine or ten screenings and part of it was because Gus was sticking to his guns on what he wanted and the studio had different ideas and so they would come back and say your numbers are horrible we want you to do this and this and this and it's like no we're not going to do this we're going to keep this we're going to do this okay we're going to do another test screening and your numbers you know and

13:32 Kelley Baker The numbers in the test screenings, a lot of that stuff is kind of rigged on the studio side.

13:37 Luke F. Walton Right. That makes sense.

13:38 Kelley Baker They know what they want and they're going to get you to do whatever it is that they want.

13:43 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

13:43 Kelley Baker And Gus held fast on so much of that. And so it just meant... turned a lot of screenings in LA.

13:52 Luke F. Walton yeah no that makes sense that must be interesting too for you because you're obviously the director is going to make the decision but you're probably just waiting in the wings like are we gonna do it are we pushing it this direction or are we sticking to your guns like what does that look like

14:06 Kelley Baker It depends on, I mean, you know, Gus and I had seven movies together so I can anticipate what do you think on one of the films I think it might have been Good Will.

14:16 Kelley Baker until we're doing a temp mix for something we were having lunch post supervisor said she said I gotta say something said I've never seen two guys who collaborate so much and who are so in sync but you guys never talk to each other you're both just sitting there and it's like you know and you know and she was like how is that possible we both just looked at each other like I don't know,

14:40 Kelley Baker you know, I mean, but we have always been on the same wavelength when it came to making those films, and I feel very fortunate with that. Working with Todd Haynes was another wonderful thing. I could have suggestions and he really was open to a lot of stuff. That's what you want in a true collaboration, you

14:58 Luke F. Walton Absolutely.

14:58 Kelley Baker know.

14:59 Luke F. Walton Regardless of what the medium is, but yeah, that is the peak. That is like the point at which we all try to reach.

15:05 Kelley Baker Right. And there are times when they'll say, no, your idea sucks.

15:08 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

15:08 Kelley Baker And nobody ever says it that way if they're smart. And part of it is just that you go, okay, well, it's your movie. It's not mine. I'm here to do the best I can for you. But in this business, you can't take stuff like that personally. You know, I know way too many people who will argue, and when I was younger, I used to argue all the time too. I always thought I was right.

15:31 Kelley Baker Now, you know, I think that on occasion I'm right anymore. You figure out which battles are, you know, that you want to, what beat you want to die on. But Gus and I rarely had those kind of problems. And it's both, we both came from an independent background, independent

15:47 Luke F. Walton Yes.

15:47 Kelley Baker making backgrounds. And so I think that that and we were huge fans of each other's short films,

15:55 Luke F. Walton Great.

15:55 Kelley Baker or

15:55 Luke F. Walton Yes.

15:56 Kelley Baker the features, you know, because I mean, he was here, I was here, you know, I mean, we'd go to screenings and, you know, and hang out and have drinks afterwards and stuff. And so, you know, we developed that kind of a relationship.

16:13 Luke F. Walton In terms of kind of the next part, talking about the way that the environment is interacting with the dialogue, what are some of the... What kind of ways do you actually do that? Are you out recording in the field sometimes? Are you using sound libraries, some sort of combination? How do you actually go about painting that sonic picture?

16:33 Kelley Baker It's definitely a combination of stuff. I've got my friends joke that I've got a very small library. I think I've got I don't know, two terabytes worth of sound effects, you know, which

16:44 Luke F. Walton Yep.

16:44 Kelley Baker but most of my friends were like, that's all. We used to go out and record a lot of stuff and there's certain individual things that, yeah, you have to get. But when I come on to a film, I look at it as like, OK, it's my opportunity to create a universe because each film exists within its own universe and you can make up the rules.

17:04 Kelley Baker I mean, even if it's set in New York, well, there's certain things you're going to have to do, certain things people are going to expect. to expect. I look at my backgrounds and the things that I want to add in that way. Is there a way I can say something with those backgrounds?

17:17 Kelley Baker You know, you've got a shot where somebody's supposed to be just, you know, sitting in their backyard and they're just lonely as all get out. Their world is collapsing. How do you show loneliness without, you know, yes, any more films with a cue, some sappy music or something, you know, but I prefer it's like, what is the sound of loneliness?

17:39 Kelley Baker Well, the sound of loneliness can be a train way off in the distance going someplace. It can be a couple of crickets. It can be, you know, what's the environment? What do you want to say here? And how much can you get away with? I think, and so that's how, you know, anytime I look at a film and I think any, most sound designers are the same way.

18:00 Kelley Baker You look at a film and say, what is our universe and what are the rules? You can do the most outrageous stuff if you're in space because there is no sound in space, right?

18:11 Luke F. Walton Right.

18:11 Kelley Baker Realistic.

18:11 Luke F. Walton Yes.

18:12 Kelley Baker If you look up all this stuff, if you're doing something like, you know, The Hobbit or some of these other things, you know, it's wide open. In my early films as a sound designer, I did a lot of animation.

18:22 Kelley Baker And that was great because there is nothing there but the voice tracks done in the studio and you look at what they've drawn or animated or whatever and that is your key it's and I get into trouble when I say this all the time when I did The Adventures of Mark Twain for Will Vinton one of the first things I did is I went out and watched The Dark Crystal because that had just come out. I hate that fucking movie.

18:46 Kelley Baker Watch my language here.

18:48 Luke F. Walton No, you don't have to.

18:49 Kelley Baker And part of it is because it's a neat, neat movie. I love The Muppets. I mean, all that stuff. I never felt like I was in a different environment.

18:58 Luke F. Walton Okay.

18:59 Kelley Baker Felt

18:59 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

18:59 Kelley Baker like they just put a couple of, you know, oh, let's just throw a jungle in or let's just throw. But it never felt real to me. And so when I did the Mark Twain film, even though it was all animated and takes place in 1910, but it's a fantasy, I used a lot of real effects and real backgrounds and combined them with other, you know, supernatural stuff or other fantasy stuff. And

19:24 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

19:24 Kelley Baker to me, it was like it needed those things put together. And I felt like they just didn't get that in the Dark Crystal.

19:33 Kelley Baker And that's why, you know, I said I didn't like that because I walked out of it thinking, okay, there was nothing I could use,

19:39 Luke F. Walton Yes.

19:39 Kelley Baker you know, to create the world that I wanted

19:43 Luke F. Walton Isn't

19:43 Kelley Baker to create.

19:43 Luke F. Walton it funny though how sometimes the anti-influence can influence you as much as the influence like, oh, I don't want to do that. So now I actually know where I'm going.

19:51 Kelley Baker Absolutely. And I always tell people too, and, you know, I do stuff that doesn't work all the time and I learn more from that. say, can we try putting this and this and this together? The one thing I do not ever want to hear is, well, that's not going to work. It's like, no, no, no, show it to me. And then we can maybe tweak it a little bit and maybe it will work. And if it doesn't work, I'm fine, we'll move on.

20:17 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh.

20:18 Kelley Baker But to say that's not going to work without looking at it or listening to it is wrong. And the other thing that we do all the time is I will never tell. the director or whoever I'm working with, what I'm using or their sounds.

20:33 Luke F. Walton Okay.

20:34 Kelley Baker Because a lot of it is in what I did the remake of Psycho. One of the things I wanted to add in there is every time you're in the Psycho house, I recorded myself breathing lightly and some whispering and a few other things. And I'm an asthmatic. And so when I recorded some of the breathing, I hadn't taken my medication for a bit. So my lungs had a kind of a wheeze to them. But I put those.

20:59 Kelley Baker i laid those down under separate tracks and on the mixed console they were unlabeled so i just had these four faders here that didn't say anything but i knew what and you know we'd be going along and there's a character kind of creeping through the house whatever and i just start bringing these things in just enough

21:20 Kelley Baker so you could hear them and kind of feel them and we'd put them in the side speakers and on occasion we'd put them in the back and after a few minutes of this all of a sudden from behind me where Gus is sitting I hear this what the hell is that and I just turned I was like what you know what what are you talking about he said I don't know what you're doing it's really really creepy

21:41 Kelley Baker i'm really liking it you know and so eventually you know i said okay this is what it is it's like well that shouldn't sound that way no but it does and

21:49 Luke F. Walton Yes.

21:50 Kelley Baker when you didn't know what it was you were fine with it and it's like just keep doing what you're doing and those are the people you want to work with you know but a lot of times i have found if you're trying to explain to someone what you're trying to do to get an effect and the stuff you're combining a lot of people can't reach that far

22:09 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

22:09 Kelley Baker you

22:10 Luke F. Walton they Yeah.

22:10 Kelley Baker don't but once they hear just like oh god that is perfect you know i mean i used to joke with the animation where a character is walking through snow and i grabbed a head of lettuce an iceberg lettuce cut it in half then put it down you know on a table with a microphone right there and just started running my hands it sounds like footsteps in snow

22:31 Kelley Baker you know we do a lot of these things that if you would look at it you would say no that doesn't but it works our mind our eyes our mind are it puts it all together and that's one of the fun parts about what we get to do I mean the sound design I always say it'll take you as far as your imagination and the director or the producer will let you go when you get involved in something like that you don't want them to start saying oh by the way you can't do this you can't do that you can't

22:58 Kelley Baker And, you know, I turned down a lot of work because I'm at the point where I want to work with people that I know, people that I respect, people that I like, who are going to say, do whatever it is you do, you know, here's the film and we'll have conversations about what they're trying to say, what they want to do. And then it's like, you know, leave me alone.

23:17 Kelley Baker And then, you know, we mix it together and it's like come in and there's things that you don't like, we're going to change them because it's your film. It's not mine. But my goal is to make you hopefully see and hear things in a different way with your own work, right? But I still always have to be.

23:33 Kelley Baker ready to say okay if that's not working for you this is what we can do to change that we can back that off we can because there are times when I will certainly go off the deep end

23:44 Luke F. Walton But that's part of the magic, though. I found this with a mixing engineer that I used to work with, and that was kind of the moment that I became a mixing engineer is he started to be like, oh, I'm not going to do that idea because they might not like it or I'm not going to go this. And I was like, that's a bad sign. That means that.

24:01 Luke F. Walton this whole relationship is kind of narrowed now to where he's not being creative enough and I try to do that when I'm mixing audio for other people is is think like okay what is the furthest possible where is this music taking me I'm gonna go there and if they tell me hey back it off 15% great they say we got to go a different direction fine but like I'm not gonna censor myself because then what why am I even working on it

24:25 Kelley Baker Absolutely. And you want to unlock.

24:28 Luke F. Walton Exactly.

24:28 Kelley Baker you know so they hadn't thought about

24:30 Luke F. Walton Yes.

24:30 Kelley Baker that all of god this really helps this really makes it on the other hand they can say yeah that doesn't work and that to me yeah that is fine and like i say and at this point too it's since i do so much of my work away from everybody anymore you know it's uh let me go wild let me go crazy it's much easier to pull someone back from the edge the ledge than to say no you've got to be more outrageous you can't do

24:56 Luke F. Walton Yes.

24:56 Kelley Baker because people can't do that but you know once you start second guessing yourself that might not be what they want

25:02 Luke F. Walton Mm

25:02 Kelley Baker um

25:02 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

25:02 Kelley Baker you know you're in trouble and it's why i'm sure you've seen my logo for those of people who aren't my logo is a finger with sprocket holes running down it and my feeling is that logo tells you what you're going to get if you work with me you know and people in the past have said you know i really don't like your logo i don't you know it's not comfortable

25:24 Kelley Baker will not do you know whatever it might be that's fine we're probably not going to work together and

25:29 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

25:29 Kelley Baker we're probably not going to gel you

25:31 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

25:31 Kelley Baker know with that and so it's why I love the logo and the fellow who designed it is because it tells you right up front who you're walking into work with

25:40 Luke F. Walton I've got some big news, everybody. My vinyl record is out. We didn't make a ton of these. These guys are going to sell out and I'd love for you to get your hands on one of them because they're so dope. Dope. It is so dope. And it comes with a whole bunch of like liner notes and pictures and special stuff, the things that really went into making this record. And I want you to get your hands on it.

26:01 Luke F. Walton So go to scoobertdoobert.pizza or check out my Instagram, pick up your copy. You know, they're going to sell out. We really did not make very many of these and I want you to have it. It's like a collector's item. So thank you. Thank you for supporting my music and I can't wait for you to hear it. actually on physical vinyl. Enjoy the rest of the episode.

26:20 Luke F. Walton I'd love to talk more about panning and kind of creating that immersive environment. What are usually the formats that you're working in, like 7.1 or something like that? Or kind of how do you how do you visualize panning just from the ground up?

26:33 Kelley Baker You know, once again, it's part of the universe. It's created the universe.

26:37 Luke F. Walton Cool.

26:37 Kelley Baker And so when I look at a scene, I don't pan as much as people think that I do. I don't use the rear speakers as much as, to me, you need to use them where they're appropriate.

26:48 Luke F. Walton Okay.

26:49 Kelley Baker The speaker I'm always most concerned about is the one up front that doesn't, you know, as long as that's coming out to everybody, then, you know, the rest of that is my sandbox. But I don't have any hard and fast rules, you know, I look at something and say, okay, this is what I would like to do with this. This is what I want to do. I've been doing so much more.

27:10 Kelley Baker small budgeted independent stuff that half the time we didn't even talk about the surround

27:17 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh.

27:17 Kelley Baker system because they can't afford it

27:19 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm. Great.

27:20 Kelley Baker you know and

27:20 Luke F. Walton Yes.

27:21 Kelley Baker so it's like i'm going to give you everything i can with an lcr left center right or ltrt left track right you know whatever where is your film going to show where is it going to be you know and am i going to need to do a foreign mix because that's the other thing that i always want

27:36 Luke F. Walton Interesting.

27:37 Kelley Baker Is that because it means that I've got to fill out the effects tracks and the Foley tracks? So I'm taking out the dialogue. for a foreign because they're going to dub it

27:47 Luke F. Walton Yes.

27:47 Kelley Baker it means that the natural clothing rustle the footsteps i mean and other things that were captured on location they're gone

27:56 Luke F. Walton They're gone. Right.

27:57 Kelley Baker and

27:58 Luke F. Walton Everything's

27:58 Kelley Baker so i have

27:58 Luke F. Walton ADR

27:59 Kelley Baker to

27:59 Luke F. Walton now.

27:59 Kelley Baker replace all that and so i need you to tell me this you know yes we're going to do a foreign yes we're going to you know whatever it is ahead of time so that i can build everything out so that When it comes time to do the form, I can just drop the dialogue out and you've got a full set of tracks to take to whoever's going to dub it or whatever it is.

28:18 Kelley Baker I try not to let a lot of the technical stuff get in my way because

28:23 Luke F. Walton Mm hmm.

28:24 Kelley Baker I'm not a technical guy and my feeling is that's a cool box, how can I use it? What

28:31 Luke F. Walton Yes,

28:31 Kelley Baker can I do with it?

28:33 Luke F. Walton Right.

28:33 Kelley Baker you know and and i've got a couple friends who i work with who are more technical and so they're the ones that i'll say it's like what if i want to do this and they're like oh yeah i can do that you know

28:43 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

28:43 Kelley Baker and

28:44 Luke F. Walton yeah.

28:44 Kelley Baker so it's like you know i i mix the simpler stuff myself or i'll ride the effects on stuff but to to to do the assigning to get the effects that i want usually somebody else has to set that up for me depending on whatever room you know we're using A lot of it has to do with it's great to have 5-1 and 7-1 and all this other stuff, but so many films don't need it.

29:09 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah.

29:11 Kelley Baker I did a film for a Lifetime movie for a friend of mine. But we, you know, we submitted the thing and they sent it to quality control, which to me is bullshit. I mean, you know, some, but I get these three things back, you know, we're failing your mix because of this, this, this.

29:30 Kelley Baker And so, you know, the producer and the director, everybody gets on, we have this big conference call with the quality control people and they're saying, and I said, okay, you know, step one, you're saying that I'm not using track number seven or whatever it was. for the opening of the movie, you want to tell everybody what track seven is? And they said, well, yeah, that's the subwoofer.

29:51 Kelley Baker And I said, yeah, I didn't use it because the opening music is a solo guitar track. What the hell am I going to use a subwoofer for a solo acoustic?

30:03 Luke F. Walton It's a rumble.

30:05 Kelley Baker And it's just quiet, you know, and I'm like. And finally, somebody said, so I guess we should call this artist's choice. And I said, call it whatever you want, but I should be fired if I ever throw out a concept with subwoofer.

30:21 Luke F. Walton Exactly.

30:22 Kelley Baker You know, and all three or four of those things that they said, you know, they were failing. It was all, they were looking at meters or something, but they were not listening to the music, the mix and watching it.

30:35 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

30:36 Kelley Baker And every one of those things, by the time we got to the end of the phone call and I got off the phone, I was just steamed.

30:41 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

30:43 Kelley Baker But I got a phone call back from the place that did the quality control and their person on there was apologizing to me. She said, you know, listen, we looked you up on IMDb and we didn't realize you'd done all this other stuff. And I said, hold it. You thought I was some schmuck from Portland, Oregon, who didn't know anything.

31:02 Kelley Baker You look me up, you see all the films that I've done, you realize there's a reason behind all this stuff, you know. And, you know, I said a few choice things, but I said, you know, I said, that's ridiculous. Your quality control is a joke and people should be if they're going to do. going to do quality control on anything you should have the mix up and watch the movie at the same time you

31:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah, okay

31:24 Kelley Baker know and that's what the dolby people do and when they would send the dolby person over to the mix studio you know they would plug in their they'd come in with this attache case you know they'd plug it oh

31:34 Luke F. Walton You've got like a whole metering thing and yeah

31:36 Kelley Baker yeah and they'd play it and then you play the film back and again the dolby guy he's just sitting there and it was always a guy i mean they might have women now but those always guys that i worked with

31:45 Kelley Baker but they just sit back and watch you know and every now and again you'd kind of look over and they'd be looking at the meters and then back and it's like you know cool and another thing could you stop for a moment and then they would ask you something and say okay well can you you know i mean it's just but right through and but they were there having the same experience the audience would and i have so much respect for those people they are approaching it the way the audience will approach it

32:13 Luke F. Walton That's great. And that seems not like the way the modern world is now. We are so luffs and meters and loudness and targets and yeah.

32:23 Kelley Baker I get it, I suppose. You know, I mean, I'm still, I still love analog, you know, we talk about music, I

32:30 Luke F. Walton Yes.

32:30 Kelley Baker still listen to vinyl,

32:31 Luke F. Walton Yes.

32:31 Kelley Baker I still listen to, you know, I mean, you know, I've got a couple of analog machines around here someplace, you know, recorders and stuff. I still love the feel that you get with analog is

32:43 Luke F. Walton Yes.

32:44 Kelley Baker is digital cleaner oh absolutely there's nothing but it's also colder you know and so there are times when it's just yeah no i still love analog i'm old what can i say

32:57 Luke F. Walton i think you're right um in terms of transcribing of going from you know the studio the mixing board to the theater are there things that change when you kind of go into these different screening environments because like every theater is a little bit different like what's that like

33:17 Kelley Baker um it's always disappointing now

33:19 Luke F. Walton Okay. Yeah.

33:20 Kelley Baker i you know i mean there's a lot of theaters that really have nice state-of-the-art stuff but

33:25 Luke F. Walton Totally.

33:25 Kelley Baker then there's well i guess there's fewer now than there used to be but but then it always comes back to who's projecting you know it's like we've got this high school kid who's getting minimum wage and they're they're handling five theaters in a multi how much time can they really you know uh do I always tell people, you know, the film is never going to sound as good as it did in the studio.

33:48 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

33:48 Kelley Baker And so, you know, and I see that with my own films all the time. You just try to mix to where you think it's going to sound good. I still, with some of my own stuff,

33:59 Luke F. Walton Mm

33:59 Kelley Baker I've

34:00 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

34:00 Kelley Baker got a small set of, you know, shitty speakers that I'll still run a mix through when Yeah. I'm done, just

34:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

34:05 Kelley Baker to make sure that the information is all there may not be pretty. you know but but it's all there but you know you walk through some of these theaters and and when we're doing a preview screening I always get to go into the theater you know and we'll run a part of it anyway before the before the screening starts and and I walk to different parts of the theater and listen to it from different places and you know it's a crapshoot every time and you just kind of have to say we're going to compromise here this is the best we can get it in this room

34:38 Kelley Baker And as a filmmaker, when I've been at film festivals and stuff, I've heard my stuff sound horrible.

34:44 Luke F. Walton Oh. Oh.

34:45 Kelley Baker you know i've heard it sound really fantastic and i've heard it seen it you know screened horribly and you know what i took from that is you know you can't get upset with anybody i was at a festival once and this guy got up before me shown his film and he's like i don't know why i shot 35 and did all this work it looks like hell in here and this and this and just and he was just like you know just ragging on the whole thing and then looks up the audience like anybody have any questions

35:10 Kelley Baker it was like yeah nobody was going to say anything you know but he's also not going to get invited back you know so sometimes theaters and you know festivals and stuff sometimes they have problems and they're working so hard to try to make better you know that you just have to take it all with a grain of salt you know i've heard my stuff horribly butchered i've heard sound really fantastic uh you just kind of go with it and just say you know hopefully the next screening will be better or you know you never think that hopefully the next screening will be worse

35:39 Kelley Baker first

35:39 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

35:39 Kelley Baker but hopefully the next one will be better and you know with everybody watching stuff at home now who knows what they have

35:47 Luke F. Walton so true.

35:48 Kelley Baker you know i mean because You get these huge, you know, TV screens, but, you know, the speakers are still tiny in those things. And some people hook up their own stuff. Well, how do they have that adjust, you know, the Dolby guy doesn't come into your home,

36:02 Luke F. Walton no and we

36:03 Kelley Baker you know.

36:04 Luke F. Walton all have we all have weird shapes in our homes too you know i've got like this inset by the fireplace and you know it's like what am i gonna do

36:12 Kelley Baker And so, like I say, I think you just kind of do the best job that you can. And then, you know, it's out in the world and you're off to the next one.

36:23 Luke F. Walton Mm hmm. And it's a great point about focusing on that dialogue, because that's the main thing you want to even if they're watching it on an airplane with the speakers that they got or the headphones they got from Delta.

36:32 Kelley Baker Right. I don't watch stuff on airplane.

36:37 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

36:38 Kelley Baker You know, I mean, I was sitting here and I had a bad flight once over the Atlantic coming back from London. I just thought, and there's like hardly anybody on the planes. You can't talk. talk and

36:47 Luke F. Walton but Yeah.

36:48 Kelley Baker i'm so busy adjusting or back and forth and back and forth you know throughout this whole thing that it's like just get my mind off the turbulence you

36:56 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah.

36:57 Kelley Baker know but but i've realized how horrible those things sound and but people put up with it all time hey i saw you work on the plane you know i really like the sound you did and you're just thinking you don't know anything you don't say that

37:10 Luke F. Walton Big plane engine right next to them. Yes.

37:13 Kelley Baker Yes.

37:14 Luke F. Walton Yep.

37:14 Kelley Baker Yeah. But, you know, but, you know, it's the same thing with people's phones and stuff. I would never watch something on a phone. I wouldn't, you know, we're purists, I guess, because we know what it can sound like.

37:27 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

37:27 Kelley Baker Even when I'm home watching something, you know, my whole family knows shut the hell up.

37:32 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Right.

37:34 Kelley Baker This is pretend you're at the theater.

37:37 Luke F. Walton Yes.

37:37 Kelley Baker I can't binge watch stuff either.

37:40 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

37:41 Kelley Baker You know, 90 minutes to two hours, whatever it is, I'm done. I have to get up and walk

37:46 Luke F. Walton What

37:46 Kelley Baker away.

37:46 Luke F. Walton do you think about movies getting longer? Because that's been something that I feel like I've been noticing as it goes on, like more and more three-hour features. It just kind of seems like the graph is going like this.

37:57 Kelley Baker It does. And with some of them, I don't see the point, you know, especially if you watch a film that came out and it was two hours and the director gets that cut and puts all sorts of stuff back in. I always watch those things saying, well, God, I see why it was taken out.

38:12 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

38:13 Kelley Baker I guess if you have a story to tell that's going to take those hours, then you do it. I mean, I didn't I don't remember complaining watching a film like Barry Lyndon. in their

38:23 Luke F. Walton 2001 Mm-hmm.

38:24 Kelley Baker i mean you know some of these older films that were along lawrence of arabia

38:27 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

38:28 Kelley Baker oh god i can't see that in the theater in 65 you know there's people then absolutely do that

38:33 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah.

38:34 Kelley Baker especially if it's one of these superhero movies you know and and let me let me be right up front when i was in college and in my stuff i subscribed to a whole bunch of comic books

38:45 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

38:45 Kelley Baker i love

38:46 Luke F. Walton yeah.

38:46 Kelley Baker comic and at some point i just kind of stopped i love the storytelling i love all this stuff I've seen a couple of superhero movies. But I'm just not that interested.

38:56 Luke F. Walton Mm hmm.

38:57 Kelley Baker You know, I'm also the guy who I read Lord of the Rings and thought, well, that's kind of a nice little series of books. And I've never gone to see the films.

39:03 Luke F. Walton Really? Wow.

39:05 Kelley Baker Yeah,

39:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

39:05 Kelley Baker I just, I thought the books were interesting.

39:08 Luke F. Walton Uh huh.

39:09 Kelley Baker And a lot of times if I find a book that I really like, I will not go see the film.

39:13 Luke F. Walton Yeah, I understand that.

39:15 Kelley Baker Yeah, because we have to do things different to make it work in the two different mediums.

39:20 Luke F. Walton Right. And also you can preserve that mental image that you have. half of what that character is and that

39:25 Kelley Baker Yeah,

39:25 Luke F. Walton kind of stuff

39:25 Kelley Baker and usually it's like, oh, God, I wouldn't have cast that person. That's, you know, that's not in my head what is. I'm also still a big reader. I mean, I'm always reading books.

39:35 Kelley Baker There's some films that, you know, people talk about so much that by the time you do go to see them and it's not anybody's fault, but you're disappointed because people have pushed this thing up onto a pedestal, pushed this thing up onto, you know, whatever it might be.

48:37 Kelley Baker which is how he's eventually captured.

48:40 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

48:41 Kelley Baker It's just him whistling, but it's the only bit of music in that movie. Now, sound is brand new in 32. Lang had never done sound before. And he knows enough to use music and the whistle in that way. It is a mind-blowing film, and most of the students are like, yeah, it's kind of long. Yes, it's long. Audiences were different.

49:03 Kelley Baker But, you know, you look at it visually, you look at it from the sound standpoint, and what is not included is always just as important as what is in there. And that's a great lesson with that movie. If you get a chance, I'd love to know what you think

49:18 Luke F. Walton I

49:19 Kelley Baker of it.

49:19 Luke F. Walton will. I love how that ties back into what we were talking about of like the full fidelity, the wall of sound compared to. The limitations and the artistic choices that can come out of that.

49:31 Kelley Baker Yeah. Well, and I think that if someone gives you all the money, whatever you want, they're hurting you. Because I don't need to come up with inventive ways to do something. I can just spend money. Whereas when we were doing the older films, Idaho, Cowgirls, and those films, and we didn't have much of a budget, I think we were a lot more creative.

49:56 Kelley Baker Now, I think that I still bring that to especially, you know, with a lot of the other work that I do, I think I still bring that to the table. But it's a big difference when you're told, you know, yeah, whatever you need, we'll take care of it, you know, and yet feel free to spend money with this stuff. I think that that inhibits something in us. And maybe it's that we don't have to push ourselves as much.

50:23 Kelley Baker to to achieve what we want to achieve we don't have to think of you know because i mean i think of like american graffiti i

50:29 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

50:30 Kelley Baker still picture it was uh walter merch and ben bird out in the field with with two recorders and a couple of speakers and they're playing the music from you know that the cars are playing as they're driving by and ben bird is holding this speaker up where the music is blasting through and he's moving it in front of the microphone so that they can instead of panning it they're doing it they're worldizing it they're doing it for real

50:52 Kelley Baker and it's like i love that visual i love that image they you know they could have panned it but they went you know back to that original let's run it through the shitty speaker that you'd find in a car

51:05 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

51:05 Kelley Baker and you know and run it past the microphone And that film has such a real, real world feel to me. I think it's Lucas's best film personally, but, and it's not that I'm a Star Wars hater, you know, they were fine, but that film had so much heart and soul to

51:25 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

51:26 Kelley Baker it that I think is missing from his later work.

51:28 Luke F. Walton And to your point of that universe building, I try to think of the same thing when I'm like mixing usually larger bodies of work.

51:35 Kelley Baker Right.

51:35 Luke F. Walton But yeah, going that extra mile and trying to think of something inventive, being called to do something rather than just.

51:41 Kelley Baker Yeah. Yeah, I mean, isn't that what we live for?

51:45 Luke F. Walton Yes,

51:45 Kelley Baker We

51:45 Luke F. Walton it

51:45 Kelley Baker are

51:45 Luke F. Walton is.

51:46 Kelley Baker creative people. You're hiring us for a reason.

51:48 Luke F. Walton Yes.

51:49 Kelley Baker I have to do what we do. Because once again, as we said earlier, you know we say no, you don't like it.

51:54 Luke F. Walton Yeah, exactly.

51:55 Kelley Baker It could also blow your mind.

51:58 Luke F. Walton Speaking of staying creative, pushing yourself, I want to talk about the diversity of your career as well. So we've talked a little bit about your feature length films. You've also worked on eight short films.

52:08 Luke F. Walton documentaries claymation and then i also want to talk a little bit about your sub stack and your writing career so how did you balance all of that and find the passion to kind of explore art in that many different ways yeah

52:21 Kelley Baker A balance is something I'm still working on, you

52:23 Luke F. Walton same okay

52:25 Kelley Baker know, because I look at the sound design and all that other stuff as, you know, that's my day job, I guess, if you will.

52:31 Luke F. Walton yeah

52:32 Kelley Baker I mean, it's a cool, fun day job. When I went to film school, I went to film school to be a filmmaker.

52:39 Kelley Baker I started the great thing about USC where I went back then was we had to do everything we had you had to learn all the positions and I enjoyed editing and I enjoyed sound where nobody else really people just stay away from sound and when I got out I found that that was a bankable skill that

52:56 Luke F. Walton Yes.

52:56 Kelley Baker I liked and so I still edit for other people I still sound design for other people but it was always a means to make my own films so I made eight short films I did I've written and directed There are two, three features that I self-distribute. I mean, documentaries, all this stuff.

53:11 Kelley Baker Those are one of the things I used to tell people all the time is when I'm in a mixed stage, you know, on somebody else's movie, I can do something that's really cool. But whenever I do that, I have to turn around and look at the person sitting behind me. and say is that okay is that what you want you

53:29 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

53:29 Kelley Baker know because I'm doing this for somebody else when

53:31 Luke F. Walton Yes.

53:31 Kelley Baker I'm doing my own films I say the biggest difference there is I never have to turn around

53:37 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

53:39 Kelley Baker I get to do what it is that I want to do. And I think that's the expression that I love. And so I started doing the short films, and there are eight of them, because I didn't think I was good enough or ready to do a feature. I mean, too many people come out of school and think, oh, I'm going to make a feature now. What do you have to say?

53:58 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

53:59 Kelley Baker And I think you have to have age to a point, you know, to live life.

54:06 Luke F. Walton Mm

54:06 Kelley Baker to

54:06 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

54:06 Kelley Baker figure stuff out but I did the short films as a training ground how much could I do in a single day how much could I do so that when I went off to do features I knew how many scenes I could get knocked out I mean I shot all three of my features I think in like 18 days, three six-day weeks, and we just worked 10 hour days. I was not going to work beyond that because

54:27 Luke F. Walton Yes.

54:28 Kelley Baker I wanted everybody fresh and, you know, with the money we had, if you're not going to pay overtime, don't work it. Those were incredibly fulfilling but then, you know, I directed three features in under six years and I kind of self-funded everything which meant that they had no budgets. You know, I got through all that stuff, distributed the features, you know, took them out on the road.

54:46 Kelley Baker the writing part was I realized I like writing books short stories and stuff because I don't have to go and raise money and

54:53 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

54:53 Kelley Baker even

54:54 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

54:54 Kelley Baker though I was still funding the

54:55 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh.

54:56 Kelley Baker features you know and the last film I did kicking bird I made for less than ten thousand dollars when I write a book when I'm telling stories and three yeah three or four of the last books and a couple of them that are coming up are collections of short stories so I'm still making short films if you will So

55:12 Luke F. Walton Uh

55:12 Kelley Baker I

55:13 Luke F. Walton -huh.

55:13 Kelley Baker can just sit down in my room here and write and money is no object, you know, I can write whatever I want and I always have people say, are you going to make these short stories into a film? And it's like, no, no, these are stories, these live this way. And I think that by making the short films, doing documentaries, working on documentaries, my own and other people's,

55:37 Luke F. Walton Mm

55:37 Kelley Baker and

55:37 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

55:37 Kelley Baker I'm still making. short films, but it all is part of the vision. It is all part of my growth as an artist, which is really important to me to

55:49 Luke F. Walton Yes.

55:49 Kelley Baker keep growing.

55:50 Luke F. Walton Yes.

55:50 Kelley Baker Right now I'm in this bizarre spot where I've got a bunch of work for hire that I'm doing both editing and sound design, picture editing and sound design, and I'm trying to find the time to work on my own stuff. So sometimes the book that I'm working on, the short stories that I'm working on right now that you alluded to, the audio book version is going to have a full-blown track. track for every story

56:11 Luke F. Walton So

56:11 Kelley Baker you know

56:11 Luke F. Walton cool.

56:11 Kelley Baker but it's was it 23 stories and

56:15 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

56:15 Kelley Baker these stories range anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes and so i'm making 23 short films because

56:24 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

56:24 Kelley Baker you know who cares if Kelley Baker is writing a short story a book of short stories who cares if there's an audiobook by Kelley we don't even know how do you separate yourselves from other people

56:36 Kelley Baker and I just thought you know what with the sound background I have and the fact that I enjoy this well why not see what I can do about putting full tracks on and I thought you know I can throw a couple of back in the backgrounds in maybe a little effect here and there whatever but as I got into it I realized now it's going to sound like shit and so now I need to do a full-blown background you know background sounds I need to add so much more to this that all of a sudden these things that I thought I was going to knock out really quick

57:04 Kelley Baker quickly you know I've been working on this for a year and a half and

57:06 Luke F. Walton Yeah

57:06 Kelley Baker I'm trying to get it done but but it's also one of the stories has this guy who hears voices in his head and there's two different voices that he hears and so you know I've

57:17 Kelley Baker talk to a friend of mine who's one of my mixing buddies it's like will you eq the voices for me it's all my voice but will you do these other voices and just eq them because

57:26 Luke F. Walton Yeah, cool

57:27 Kelley Baker i think that i've read them in the way i want to read them but so that they sound not like me reading so they sound like you know and so suddenly

57:35 Kelley Baker you know everything becomes much more complex Yeah. the thing the time I get to the end of it I'm going to be happy now if it doesn't go out and sell exactly devoted you know hundreds of hours and that's you know what I didn't realize but I by the time the book is done it's not your book you know there will be hundreds of hours I have spent doing this and I think I must be crazy I'm probably insane but I know that

58:03 Kelley Baker It'll be worth it at the end for me if for no other reason that I think I'm adding a different dimension to these stories.

58:12 Luke F. Walton And you're seeing an idea all the way through that I think a lot of people haven't like we're doing a podcast right now. You know, there are a lot of podcasts that have audio beds. I've spoken to some great, great people that produce podcasts, but to take it to that next level where it's beyond a podcast, it's beyond an audio book, it's now some. new, exciting, and difficult medium.

58:35 Kelley Baker Yeah, and, you know, I was going to say that there are no nets here. I'm working without a net.

58:40 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

58:40 Kelley Baker With everything nowadays being so open, everybody is really free to criticize and wants to critique and also, but nobody wants to do the work to put that out there. People don't understand. And if people hate it, that's, once again, that's fine. I stopped reading reviews and all that stuff a long time ago because it's the only way I can exist. list

59:00 Luke F. Walton Yes.

59:00 Kelley Baker is because I do have the kind of mind that you know 99 people could love it think it's the greatest thing ever and one person is lukewarm I'm going to walk around for years going one person didn't you know didn't love it you know I mean that's how my brain works and so by not reading or learning any you know seeing any of this other stuff then I try to preserve my brain for the next project and will I do this again

59:27 Kelley Baker in because I'm working on another book of short stories it'll come out next year but

59:30 Luke F. Walton Cool.

59:31 Kelley Baker I'm already looking at that and saying geez do I want to do this again do I want to do this and and I'm hoping that by the time I get this first one done then it'll be a good enough experience that I want to say I don't see the sound as competing with the story I do see the sound adding to the story still my voice doing the readings and and when I do readings I do try to animate my voice if you will

59:55 Kelley Baker to the characters you know perform it's one of my big things with authors now when i go hear authors read god are authors usually the worst people to read their shit you know and i was just reading with a friend of mine but he's just like and it's like you know by the time i'm listening i don't want to read the damn book hopefully he'll never listen to this podcast luckily i've been to a few author readings lately so they're not going to hear me

60:20 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

60:20 Kelley Baker either

60:21 Luke F. Walton there you go.

60:21 Kelley Baker The rest work great.

60:22 Luke F. Walton Keep monetized.

60:23 Kelley Baker But when I do a reading, I perform the stories.

60:27 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah.

60:28 Kelley Baker I think I've got friends who are also writers who can perform their stories as well. And, you know, because you're trying to sell the story.

60:36 Kelley Baker And so I'm looking at this also as all of the sound hopefully is another way to sell my story and not monetarily necessarily, that would be nice, but to get the story across and get the nuances across. And it's a totally different game and mindset to write a short story than to write a screenplay because in a short story I can be inside the character's heads.

61:01 Kelley Baker And you can't really do that in a screenplay, you can in some screenplays, you know, and that's much more complicated to do that story. Now, how do I communicate to an audience with a short story, or

61:13 Luke F. Walton Yes.

61:13 Kelley Baker in the person's head, or that we are, you know, I mean, all this other stuff, you know, it's another challenge. And I guess even after all these years, I think I still live for the challenge.

61:29 Luke F. Walton And that's, I think that's a great example of, you know, where I hope to be when I'm 45 years into my career too, you know, I want to keep. I'll keep finding things that'll make me excited and challenged and push and how cool is it that your best work it could always be ahead why not you know why not cool

61:48 Kelley Baker That is my feeling. It has always been my philosophy. My

61:53 Luke F. Walton yes

61:53 Kelley Baker best years, my best work is still in front of me because I think we need that as creative people. We need to think, oh God, you know, let me crank out another version of the last. the best two movies that I did same with musicians you

62:09 Luke F. Walton Totally.

62:09 Kelley Baker know bands it's like they'll do a couple of records that everybody loves and then the choice becomes do they follow what they want to do and ground break and have everybody say well that sucks because that's not like the last two things where they're really happy you know I would rather listen to stuff that maybe My own expectations are not met because I like the earlier work,

62:33 Kelley Baker but I want to be able to discern that they are going down a different pathway. Let's see where that leads them and leads me as the listener, the viewer, whatever it is. I think that that's important and we don't allow that. I mean, everybody wants to be a star before they're 30.

62:53 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

62:54 Kelley Baker You got nothing to say before you're 30. Shit who you are.

62:58 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

62:59 Kelley Baker I mean, it's because you got to live life. You have to experience also failure and, you know, and all sorts of other things and success and also to make your work, you know, and these are my.

63:12 Kelley Baker touch points my philosophies i know it's not the same with everybody else and that's fine but you know i see on stuff that's done by uh people and i usually don't want to find out the ages of people who are doing you know those films i'm watching i can always tell by the cast you know because people always cast people their own age you know and stuff like that but it's you know i i want to see them deal with things that i guess a more more universal

63:40 Kelley Baker more general things that we can all identify with and i think and i was told by a lot of people my short films were successful and they've been shown all over the world because i took things from my life that people could understand i mean there's one called stolen toyota about my trucking stolen and totaled and i made a seven minute film about that from that film has been seen all over the world literally and i always get stopped

64:06 Kelley Baker you know where it's played or whatever people saying you know I had my car stolen too and god I could sympathize but the same things happen to us all you know one of my films about my high school dating career which was a disaster you know and people would see that it's like oh god I can really relate on high school I was geeky I was horrible I was you know so those are things that I'm always thinking about and looking for

64:25 Luke F. Walton I agree. And one of the things that I've been feeling as I've been aging is the feeling that loss accumulates.

64:33 Luke F. Walton every year you're going to lose something someone and you don't know that when you're young because you have some people have um tragically but like you know that's part of just growing yeah

64:44 Kelley Baker Yes, because I just went to my 50-year high school reunion, which is still mind-boggling. I didn't want to go to the earlier ones, I went to one or two, because people were still talking about how great high school was or how great college was and people live in that past, the best years of my life were when I was 19 or whatever. might be that's boring to

65:01 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

65:02 Kelley Baker me we

65:02 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

65:02 Kelley Baker all went through that some of it did different things different but why aren't we thinking about the you know once again the best years of our life are in front of us you know next week i could be getting onto a plane and going to paris for two months and i'm totally making that up i would love to do that you know but i mean and to say that spending two months in paris would not be the best two months of my life at this point you know how can you say that you know i mean

65:27 Kelley Baker We should always be looking forward in our lives and in our art, in our work, in our let's look forward because that's how I think we're going to test ourselves. And do you find that people are so afraid of failure? You know, I can't fail, I can't fail, I can't fail. And I always tell students, you have to fail, you need to fail, right?

65:47 Kelley Baker And just because you fail doesn't mean you're a bad person or you're a failure. It means something didn't work out. now how can you adjust yourselves mentally i mean you know whatever it is and know that the next thing you do will be better no

66:01 Luke F. Walton That's the way I know if I'm ready or not to do my next album. When I'm ready to fail again, then I'm ready to do it because I'm like excited. I don't care. I'm going to throw this out of the wind. But after I finished the record, I need like, I need some time. There's a buffer period of I can't put myself out there again.

66:18 Kelley Baker it's the same with writing it's the same with filmmaking it's the same with all that stuff So we put this in. One of my friends who is a wonderful writer, he always used to tell me, it's like, as soon as you finish something, you need to already be working on something.

66:30 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Yes.

66:31 Kelley Baker Because if it does go out and doesn't meet your expectations or the others', well, you're already involved creatively in something else you're doing, and so it won't hurt as much.

66:41 Luke F. Walton Yep.

66:41 Kelley Baker It's still going to hurt.

66:42 Luke F. Walton Yeah, it's good advice. Yep.

66:43 Kelley Baker But always have that next thing going when you're releasing something. And I think that that's a wonderful advice. I agree with that all the time.

66:52 Luke F. Walton And I try and do that, though, alternating between long form, short form, like albums. So it's like, okay, let's do some singles or some collaborations or whatever. Or like lower, lower level stuff, less emotional investment.

67:04 Kelley Baker Right. But but I think that you can't. we say less emotionally

67:08 Luke F. Walton I

67:09 Kelley Baker yes

67:09 Luke F. Walton know.

67:09 Kelley Baker and

67:09 Luke F. Walton I know.

67:10 Kelley Baker we do and

67:11 Luke F. Walton I know.

67:11 Kelley Baker it's like we're we're in all the way you

67:14 Luke F. Walton Yeah, it's so true.

67:15 Kelley Baker know this is something i'm knocking this out really quick

67:18 Luke F. Walton Exactly.

67:18 Kelley Baker no i'm not

67:20 Luke F. Walton No,

67:20 Kelley Baker you

67:20 Luke F. Walton I'm not. I know.

67:21 Kelley Baker know i'm putting everything behind it

67:22 Luke F. Walton I know.

67:23 Kelley Baker you know and i think that that's the joke you know people think oh yeah you just knock these things out

67:27 Luke F. Walton Yeah, right.

67:28 Kelley Baker and it's like yeah no you don't you know it might seem like it was knocked out to you because it only took a year you know

67:34 Luke F. Walton real yeah

67:35 Kelley Baker you know whatever

67:36 Luke F. Walton exactly yeah

67:37 Kelley Baker it might be but still the time and everything you invest in all the stuff that's up here in your brain i've been failing and being successful for 40 plus years 45 years and god you can't ask for more than that you know the big thing for me is will it continue can it continue that's the only thing i think sometimes that i worry about is as i'm aging aging,

68:01 Kelley Baker you know, and I'm losing friends, I'm losing collaborators, people

68:04 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

68:05 Kelley Baker who it's like, it's us against the world, it's, you know, I mean, all that other stuff. And so you change inside, and you look at things maybe a little more jaded, but you also, you know, the analogy I use all the time when, you know, people are asking, am I going to go out on tour again? I'm going to hit the road and do those things I used to do.

68:25 Kelley Baker And it's like, you know, I know at 68, the road in front of me is a lot. it's a lot shorter than the one behind me and so what I really want to do is spend more time at home in my workroom my studio my whatever it is creating because when I'm out on the road and doing things and showing my

68:41 Luke F. Walton Yep.

68:41 Kelley Baker work I can't get any new stuff done Exactly. and so I know I have a certain amount of time to create and that's what's really fulfilling for me right now that's what I want to do I you know I want to continue to be challenged I think, right, for me now, that's more important than hitting the road again and doing all the crazy shit that I used to do.

69:02 Luke F. Walton Yes.

69:02 Kelley Baker And a lot of that's chronicled in my book, Road Dog, the seven years I spent touring the country, showing my work and meeting crazy people and doing dumbass things. I'd never known, I'd never had Mount Moonshine before I hit the road. Now you know.

69:19 Luke F. Walton Yes, now you know.

69:21 Kelley Baker I know different types of moonshine and how they taste differently.

69:25 Luke F. Walton Hope you never went blind.

69:27 Kelley Baker Have it? Yeah.

69:28 Luke F. Walton So I have one last question that I want to ask you. The show is called Love Music More. And so I always like to ask the question, why do you love music? What is it about it that keeps you excited, that keeps you coming back to creating these audio soundscapes and immersive realities and little universes?

69:48 Kelley Baker God, without music, life would be really boring. We hear songs that can take us, transport us to a particular time in our life, good, bad, and different. Gary Reitstrom told me once, and this has to do with music, but it's not just music, it's audio in general. It's like if someone you love passes away. How do you want to remember them with a photograph or recording of their voice?

70:13 Luke F. Walton Yep.

70:13 Kelley Baker I want to hear their voice, be it an old phone message, I mean, whatever it is, because that's going to make me see that person and feel that person much more than a photograph. I mean, I've got a ton of photographs and somehow some of those people, I can't see them anymore, if you know what I mean, I can't

70:27 Luke F. Walton I know what you mean.

70:29 Kelley Baker But with music and audio and everything else, it's all the senses. It brings back in all the senses. Senses, I can hear a song and remember the first time I heard it or whatever, and I can smell the place I was in. I can look in the eyes of the person I was with when we discovered this. And audio does that in a way that visual things cannot.

70:55 Kelley Baker But people always say audio is so hard to do because you can't see it, but you're using the wrong senses. You know, you need to use them all. And I think that that's why I love audio in all its shapes and forms. And I love music. I mean, I think that the very first concert I ever went to, I think I was 10 or 11 years old, I saw the Supremes and

71:17 Luke F. Walton Cool.

71:18 Kelley Baker a while later I saw the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson was still touring. That's how old I am, you know, and Buffalo Springfield opened and you know, I mean all this other stuff. I can still remember that kid going to the Coliseum and seeing all that stuff and it was such a, it's like.

71:33 Kelley Baker oh god opening your eyes and and everything and I don't know anything else that can do that for us the way audio and music can and I you know I'll still put on some Beach Boys every now and again you know along with everything else that I listen to and I think you're probably incredibly eclectic to what you listen to and I think we have to be because we're stealing from artists of all sorts of other generations aren't we

72:02 Kelley Baker to do our stuff so

72:04 Luke F. Walton From all around

72:04 Kelley Baker I guess

72:05 Luke F. Walton the world.

72:05 Kelley Baker that's my answer I guess

72:08 Luke F. Walton Great

72:08 Kelley Baker it's

72:08 Luke F. Walton answer.

72:08 Kelley Baker yeah I cannot imagine a life without music

72:13 Luke F. Walton I agree. And I hope that that's the center piece of what I'm trying to do with this whole podcast is try to impart that on people and let them know how much the artists that they love, whose art they consume and is part of their lives, think about it and care about it and give to it.

72:31 Kelley Baker we have to we I mean otherwise why do it you know and everybody always says art is not important this is not important oh shit look at what we went through that pandemic people were screaming for more content more and it's like I don't like that word content you know we create things that are personal I think anytime you make a record anytime you just you're putting yourself into it all you know music and art is very personal

72:55 Luke F. Walton Well, it also... Also think about the way you feel. So when I'm on TikTok or Instagram reels for a while, I finish and I feel gross. I feel like what did I just do? Why did I just do that? I let it win. When I sit down and intentionally watch a movie or listen to a record with my eyes closed at night at like 11 p.m. where there's just silence around me, I don't feel that way afterwards. I feel fulfilled.

73:21 Luke F. Walton I feel bigger. I feel stronger. More connected.

73:24 Kelley Baker and i tell people that the two most interesting thing music moments for me were i you know i came to pink floyd very late Yeah.

73:31 Kelley Baker on the conversation wasn't until the 80s maybe in the 90s when i'd heard money i'd heard a few things like yeah okay whatever but somebody handed me dark side and said sit down and listen to this from beginning to end and i did and then i listened to it from beginning to end three times in one sitting because it's like holy shit there's a lot going on here you know that's what i do now it's like i listen to a lot of their stuff and and get so much more from it but the other thing that really got to me was a friend of mine said you know get that robert johnson cd the blues cd put it in your cd player and turn off all the lights in your house your room whatever put a candle on or whatever and just sit there and listen to that cd and if you don't think that he signed the deal with the devil

74:17 Kelley Baker You know, that is the creepiest goddamn CD and music that I've ever heard, and I love it, and I will go back and listen, I don't think I'll ever listen again with the lights off, you know, because,

74:29 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

74:29 Kelley Baker but I mean, it was an incredible experience,

74:30 Luke F. Walton Yes.

74:31 Kelley Baker and it kind of freaked me out,

74:32 Luke F. Walton Yes.

74:32 Kelley Baker but

74:33 Luke F. Walton Right.

74:34 Kelley Baker it was, it was worth it, it was what we need, you know, what I needed to do, you know, and. Yeah, I mean, to experience stuff like that, I love the fact that you still listen to whole albums with the lights off and shit. I do too. And it allows me to get lost in

74:51 Luke F. Walton Mm-hmm.

74:52 Kelley Baker the music and in my thoughts. And that's a wonderful and scary place to be some nights.

75:00 Luke F. Walton I agree. I agree.

75:01 Kelley Baker But it makes us who we are. You know, people saying there's no good music today, I totally disagree. But to say that music is not as vibrant as it once was, you're not looking hard enough.

75:14 Kelley Baker you're listening to the mainstream and what people are telling you to listen to, I have so much respect for Taylor Swift. You know, am I a fan of her work? Am I a fan of her songs? They're fine, you know, but thank God we have someone like that. Thank God we still have these people.

75:32 Kelley Baker Nobody's ever heard of cranking their stuff out in their garage, in the kitchen, in their bedroom, you know. I mean, there's still a lot of great stuff out there. It's not being handed to you like maybe it once was, but there's always good music. There's always good art. There's always good movies. You just have to look.

75:53 Luke F. Walton Yep. And you have to reward the ones that are doing that in your opinion. And I think that's part of the magic of the late 60s, early 70s is that people went. There were stadium shows for these acts that we look at as classic. If they came out today, would there be a stadium full of people there to go see them? Like you decide.

76:13 Kelley Baker Yeah, no, I don't think so. But it's also going to hear the local people.

76:17 Luke F. Walton Totally. Totally. Giving

76:19 Kelley Baker But,

76:19 Luke F. Walton that

76:19 Kelley Baker yeah,

76:20 Luke F. Walton energy. Yeah.

76:22 Kelley Baker yeah, and know that these people are pursuing their dream, their goal, whatever it is, and that has to be rewarded, maybe not financially, but it's like to tell a local musician, God, I love your work.

76:38 Luke F. Walton Yeah. Yeah.

76:39 Kelley Baker You know, it's, oh, I bought one of your CDs at your last show.

76:42 Luke F. Walton Right.

76:43 Kelley Baker Dude, this was amazing. You know, that means so much. so much I mean I still get if somebody likes one of my books you

76:49 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

76:50 Kelley Baker know and they send me a note you know I'm good for the next couple of weeks you know say what you want about the rest of my work you know and once again we're in a society where everybody thinks that all this stuff is easy and it's never been easy with all the music you've done over the years do you sit down and say okay well this record is going to be easier

77:10 Luke F. Walton No, I

77:11 Kelley Baker Go

77:11 Luke F. Walton get better

77:12 Kelley Baker ahead.

77:12 Luke F. Walton at procedural stuff. I can make thing, I can fix problems faster.

77:17 Kelley Baker Right, right. But you know, every time I sit down to write,

77:20 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

77:20 Kelley Baker it never gets easier.

77:21 Luke F. Walton no, of

77:21 Kelley Baker And to

77:22 Luke F. Walton course not.

77:22 Kelley Baker a point, and this is an author I know told me this once, you know, she was in her 80s, but she said, it gets harder every time.

77:28 Luke F. Walton Yeah, yeah,

77:29 Kelley Baker It was like when I was in my 20s, I thought, oh, she's just saying that she's just, oh, God, I get it now.

77:34 Luke F. Walton yeah.

77:35 Kelley Baker You know, it does get harder every time and you have to push through different walls.

77:39 Luke F. Walton Yep.

77:40 Kelley Baker to get there but it's still just as rewarding you know maybe even a little bit more rewarding because you're standing you

77:48 Luke F. Walton I think so.

77:48 Kelley Baker know but I mean that's and I hope it never does get easy it gets easy then I question my commitment

77:55 Luke F. Walton Yeah. a question what you're what you're pursuing now like yeah where are you

77:59 Kelley Baker Yeah

77:59 Luke F. Walton all you're just doing the same thing again we should leave the people wanting a little more so they can go to your substack and check you check you out and then subscribe so they can hear about the audiobook that we were just talking about so they can they can pick that up so where can people find you Kelley

78:14 Kelley Baker Easiest to find me at angryfilmmaker.com is my website and all my stuff is up there. I am on Substacks, Kelley Baker. I'm on Instagram as Kelley Baker and angryfilmmaker. Same with Facebook. I still use social media and I don't mind if people reach out. I try to comment on all the Substacks that I read and

78:36 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

78:36 Kelley Baker I know

78:37 Luke F. Walton yeah.

78:37 Kelley Baker if somebody's got thousands of, you know, what does it matter? But sometimes it matters a lot.

78:42 Luke F. Walton Yes.

78:43 Kelley Baker I don't just hit a like button.

78:46 Luke F. Walton Mm

78:46 Kelley Baker I

78:46 Luke F. Walton -hmm.

78:47 Kelley Baker want to send a note.

78:48 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

78:49 Kelley Baker saying you know it's like the piece that you wrote about the Beatles you know I'm going to be sending you a note the next day or

78:55 Luke F. Walton Oh,

78:55 Kelley Baker two because

78:55 Luke F. Walton thank you.

78:56 Kelley Baker I really enjoyed it and

78:57 Luke F. Walton I'm so glad.

78:57 Kelley Baker I want you to know that and not just oh I like your work it's you know when you said this or compared this to this I get it you're right or I agree or you

79:07 Luke F. Walton Or tell

79:07 Kelley Baker know

79:08 Luke F. Walton me where it's wrong, too, because it's one person's, yeah.

79:11 Kelley Baker right right the joke is on my website the email to get hold of me the email that pops up is bother me at angryfilmmaker.com and

79:20 Luke F. Walton that is great

79:21 Kelley Baker I get people who are saying I was afraid to send you an email he says good good because I don't want a lot of stuff coming my way but if you're if you've thought about something or have a legitimate question or whatever then you know definitely reach out and it's why I love Substack we can have a conversation

79:38 Luke F. Walton yep it's a great platform i'm really happy to have discovered it because it's not talked about enough and it's the best social media I've ever seen yeah

79:49 Kelley Baker I'm with you. I mean, I use the other things to promote stuff and I use Substack to the pieces that I write, I think about. Yeah, that's neat. That's really kind of neat. And so, yeah, so angryfilmmaker.com

80:02 Luke F. Walton Great.

80:02 Kelley Baker and those other things. And like I said, I do what I used to teach. I'd encourage students, reach out even when the class is over. If you've got a question, if I can save you some time trying to figure something out, I'd be happy to do that.

80:14 Luke F. Walton Perfect. Well, thank you so much for the great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I hope you'll consider

80:18 Kelley Baker Thank

80:18 Luke F. Walton us did too.

80:19 Kelley Baker you so much. And keep doing what you're doing, man.

80:21 Luke F. Walton Thank you. Likewise.