An Interview with Ben Rice

1:58 Luke F. Walton good everybody welcome back to love music more i am Scoobert Doobert joined with ben rice how's it going ben

2:07 Ben Rice Hey guys, hey man going going really well winding down my day here and excited to chat with you

2:13 Luke F. Walton Well, you have an obviously beautiful space behind you for those that are watching on video right now. Where are you located right now?

2:21 Ben Rice So I'm in Brooklyn. I'm based out of a studio called Degraw Sound. It's been my spot now for 14 years. And it's crazy to think about how quickly it goes. I walk in here and it still feels like a brand new thing to me. But 14 years goes pretty quick.

2:37 Luke F. Walton That's incredible. And also 14 years of being in the musical scene and talking about indie rock bands, the thing that I want to dive into right at the beginning is this notion of the fifth.

2:48 Luke F. Walton fifth band member the fifth beetle the role of the producer and also the like nurturing role of the producer of like especially when you're integrating a band that maybe has played a lot of shows or has got a little bit of buzz or following might be their first time in the studio super curious to kind of learn more about how you view that role and kind of that pressure and and privilege that kind of comes with it

3:08 Ben Rice Yeah. Well, my background was playing in bands, you know, growing up, I grew up in Brooklyn and, you know, played in bands in the early 2000s.

3:15 Ben Rice And I remember when when we started working with producers and just you know they would show up at our rehearsal space and you know they'd be very patient with us while we tried to figure things out but there's one you know one producer who I worked with early on Gus Van Gogh who still is making records you know I think he worked with The Beaches recently and Metric and

3:39 Ben Rice he's just you know an amazing amazing producer and creative you know human being but he was so nurturing to us and to me personally and just took the time to like really just be there and there's one of those things early on in my career where he kind of identified for me it's like you know see like a lot of different kinds of music i see that you like writing songs it's like you might consider doing this production thing besides being in a band

4:08 Ben Rice And then, you know, friends bands would start asking me, they're like, why do your songs work and our songs don't work? And I was like, well, we have a producer and, you know, he works

4:17 Luke F. Walton Yep.

4:17 Ben Rice out this stuff with us and, you know, we're working on the arrangement, we're exploring these ideas. I mean, I feel like a lot of what I do just goes back to like what I experienced in a positive way from being in a band and then kind of, you know, having essentially a couple decades now of doing it.

4:34 Ben Rice You know in my own way and kind of figuring out like how do I find the best ways to communicate You know with with the different people and different personalities and bands

4:43 Luke F. Walton I'm super curious about that because it does seem like there is, you know, like there's a chain of apprenticeship. It's almost kind of like coaches become players become coaches, like knowing a playbook that worked for you in that space, it makes it so much easier, I think, to put yourself in a new band's shoes.

5:02 Ben Rice a hundred percent and you know like I remember what it felt like You know, like I remember what it felt like to go in and have to be vulnerable and share a song and you're there with like your friends and your, you know, your bandmates and you don't want to look bad in front of them and you don't want that, you know, they feel the same way.

5:19 Ben Rice So also, you know, being there as a producer now it's like finding ways to like create the space for everybody in the band to feel like they can just share ideas and that we try everything. I read a book by Phil Jackson.

5:32 Ben Rice Cool. to see Yeah. a basketball Yeah, it's a master. coach. Yeah. and it was one of those things where like it actually it put together a lot of the things that I felt that I was doing like naturally from

5:45 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

5:45 Ben Rice being in bands and then from like working with bands and he I think he does a really great job of just like articulating these thoughts as far as like how do you build a team and how do you create you know a space where everybody can be themselves right he wasn't treating you know I'm not the basketball fishing out of any stretch of the imagination.

6:03 Ben Rice but you know he wasn't treating Dennis Rodman the way he was treating you know Pippen or you know Jordan and I think that when you're working with a team of people everybody's different everybody needs different things but everybody needs to have a voice and everybody needs to feel welcome and feel like they can be the best version of themselves So I think that's super important when you have a band.

6:26 Ben Rice It's like, you know, you've got the lead singer, but the lead singer is their best when everybody else in the band is contributing and able to feel comfortable to show up and share.

6:36 Luke F. Walton I actually really like basketball as an analogy because it's a five person sport, just like a lot of bands are like four or five people and everyone has a huge role because it goes offense to defense. So everybody has to be kind of.

6:50 Luke F. Walton not the weak link or you need to protect against each other's weaknesses with each other's strengths and there's that flow there's that energy where it's mental but you're also having to react in real time just like with music where like yeah you can practice something forever or you can think through the nuances of what you'd want to do in your solo or how you want the drum beat to like look or be shaped on the grid but ultimately it comes down to like how do your limbs work how do you feel that day like what is your gear

7:17 Luke F. Walton Pull out of you so that's actually a really cool analogy. I like it.

7:20 Ben Rice baseball is my sport like i grew up as like a baseball fan but i think that like you said like the the way that a basketball team has to move together and play together you know phil jackson talks about this he's such a you know he's a massive music fan and just like the rhythm of the game i think that there's a lot of parallels and it was there's also like this he talks about in his book and not like

7:45 Ben Rice obviously podcast doesn't have to be like the Phil Jackson podcast but but you know it was just so profound to like see those similarities and especially with like the team team side of what a band is versus working with a solo artist although of course there's the overlap because you wind up being their team and their band as a producer but

8:04 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

8:05 Ben Rice you know he talks about this idea that like when when the team shows up that you know when they step onto the court that they're trusting him in him as their coach and putting, you know, their trust and faith in him. And I think that as producers, like any artist that chooses to work with you as a producer, they're putting so much trust and so much faith in you.

8:26 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

8:26 Ben Rice And it's this massive moment in their lives where they've written these songs or they're writing these songs and they're looking for, you know, somebody who can help them get it across the finish line, but they're looking for a space where they can realize it to the way that they're like dreaming it. Right. And oftentimes they only get one chance to do that. So anytime that like.

8:47 Ben Rice like a band shows up or an artist shows up for you as a producer i feel like it's like also this you're showing up for them in that same way where this is their one shot to make this record you've got to be as present as what you're asking them to be

9:01 Ben Rice that's beautiful how do you set the stage like the scene like what is your first impression how do you welcome people into the studio like obviously you have a great energy and i already feel my blood pressure lowering from its typical normal as i feel like how do you welcome Welcome people in.

9:17 Ben Rice I mean, I like to go see bands. I love to go see the band play or Yeah, yeah. or, you know, or solo artists if they have a show. And it's remotely close by to where I am, you know, I'll travel to go see them because I think that you, you learn so much from just seeing like somebody's performance and, and hearing them and going to rehearsals.

9:40 Ben Rice Like, I think that there's a lot of things that you can do before you get in the studio, have conversations with them so that the minute that they show up, it's not like, okay, game time. A lot of times, you know, New York City has kind of become a destination there. There's still a great music scene here.

9:56 Ben Rice Mm or -hmm. so I'm told um you know there there definitely is still music scene here but it's also this destination right in the same way that Nashville and LA and London are so a lot of the projects that I do are people who are traveling and they're like I want to go to New York City and make a record so I always try to like make sure that we have time together and that you know when possible that like the first time that we're getting in a room it's not just like oh

10:22 Ben Rice go hit record or if it's going to be like the same day you know you always want to like have a couple hours to hang and have coffee and you know have these kind of conversations

10:33 Ben Rice Absolutely. And just to like, yeah, set the context and set the what you're going for so much of it. I think there could be a lot of pressure, especially if you're like working remotely with somebody or whatever to be like, here's the perfect reference or here's what I'm trying to go for like really detailed words.

10:50 Ben Rice But so much of it is almost communicated by vibe and body language and just being being present. And I think, yeah, that's something that has definitely I think been missing from a lot of producer conversations.

11:02 Ben Rice it's so hard i mean i think especially like over the past like whatever five or six years

11:07 Ben Rice Yeah since the pandemic there's been this entire wave where we got really used to like working remotely and having these kind of like zoom conversations and we needed to do that because we're creative human beings like we love making music and we needed to continue doing that just for our sanity and for like our souls and for like who we are but i think that the flip side of that is that like

11:29 Ben Rice now that it's been safe to hang out in person like for a couple years you know it's like we can get back in a room and just I think reminding people that there is this beauty of the unspoken communication that you have when you can just be silent around each other but you can like read what the other person is sharing just by how they like what their body language is listening back you know and I think that that's one of the things that you can get it I mean

11:57 Ben Rice We can get it to a certain extent when we're on a video call, but the silence is a different thing when you're in the room together.

12:05 Ben Rice Yeah, I agree. And it's a good point too, I think, with what we're facing in the broader industry with AI and the pressures and all that kind of stuff to be able to go the opposite direction and get more human and more physical when so much other stuff is shifting digital, it just makes a lot of sense.

12:22 Ben Rice Yeah. I mean, AI has its own cadre Yeah, no, of words. totally, totally. I know.

12:28 Ben Rice And I mean, I don't have the answer. I don't know if anybody does. But I mean, I think that there's definitely a place for it. But I also think, you know, for me, it just comes back to like, why did I want to make music in the first place and just tying into like the theme and the name of the podcast? It's like, I love making music.

12:48 Ben Rice So that's why I wake up in the morning. I wake up in the morning because I'm like, I want another opportunity to make music. I don't want to give that to AI.

12:56 Ben Rice Yeah. Nothing against AI. If somebody wants to do it with AI, do it with AI if that's what gets you going. But I love the process of being with other creative human beings making stuff. It's just the best feeling.

13:11 Ben Rice I think that's actually something interesting to talk about too is like the process, like what those steps actually look like and how they can change. And I think that, yeah, the journey versus destination thing with records sometimes. sometimes gets blended but my favorite producers they they talk almost exclusively about the journey like obviously

13:30 Ben Rice Yeah. they're progressing towards having a releasable record but it's it's so funny about how um i don't know the conversations that i hear just seem like they're dominated with like how do we how do we really focus on being present and moving together and exploring different places

13:46 Ben Rice I mean, I think about that a lot. The producers and the record makers that The mixers too, who seem to make the music and the art that really speaks to me the most, I think have

14:01 Ben Rice crack the code on like how to really be present and I remember like one of my favorite bands like growing up was a band called the verve and

14:09 Ben Rice Yeah, bittersweet bittersweet symphony was like the the kind of breakthrough but they've i mean if you haven't listened highly recommend listening to the whole catalog because they there's so much there but

14:10 Ben Rice totally. my point in bringing them up is I remember that there was like an interview with the singer Richard Ashcroft and he was talking about like they had won like maybe like a Brit award or something and he was like it's it's not about like winning the awards it's about the completion of the process and I remember being you know probably whatever 14 or 15 and it's like one of those things that like sounds really cool when somebody says it so like as a you know teenager like

14:50 Ben Rice it like clicks even though like i had no idea what it meant there was something about that where i was just like whoa that sounds like a really cool thing to say like that guy must be the man and you know he's made some great art but it's only through making records for a couple decades now that i'm like man like that really is it

15:09 Ben Rice you know it's just it's the completion of the process it's the fact that we get to be here and create these moments and these memories with each other and then on a certain level like the records for us on a certain level like the records for like the listener on a certain level it's like for maybe the universe or whatever spirituality like you feel

15:30 Ben Rice but the only thing that we have control over is like if we're present while we're making it and if we're present with the other person and people that we're making it with so I think that like you know to the best of my ability I try to just kind of slow things down and really be there okay

15:46 Luke F. Walton That's beautiful. I actually want to ask you now on the exact opposite, the Chinese democracy question. How do you keep things moving? So like it's one thing to be very present and in the process and and and give the record the time but how do you also give it the pace and intensity so that you don't like just get caught in whirlpools Well, there

16:05 Ben Rice I mean, we're working within the budget.

16:06 Luke F. Walton you go yeah yeah sorry yeah

16:09 Ben Rice So it kind of solves itself. No, I mean, it's like, I think that that definitely factors into it. But one of the things that I really believe in is just having like open and honest conversations like throughout the process.

16:23 Ben Rice as a making records and with everybody they collaborate with so i think that like Before I started working with like really good producers like as a you know musician coming up I definitely had the experience of being in situations where I felt like we were being rushed and we were being rushed because somebody wasn't comfortable having the awkward or perhaps like difficult conversation of saying hey guys we're falling behind schedule here and I think that like when you're working with an artist you've got to have the openness where you can say to them hey you know we're falling behind schedule here.

16:58 Ben Rice and then see how they feel about that because sometimes sometimes the answer is okay we all acknowledge it it's no longer this elephant in the living room and we can still like we just recalibrate and

17:11 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

17:12 Ben Rice we can pick up the pace naturally without feeling rushed right or sometimes you say you know like we're finding something that we didn't think we were going to find we need to extend this and

17:23 Luke F. Walton Yep.

17:23 Ben Rice both can be totally legitimate i think it's only like when you get into like the fear-based thing of like being like rushed of like trying to like oh we're gonna like speed through that idea oh it's good enough it's just like anytime you do that you just create problems and you

17:40 Ben Rice I think that you really jeopardize the trust that you can establish as a collaborator and for me I feel like I'm so sensitive to that where like I don't like when people lie to me I don't like when people like aren't like genuine with me so I try to give that to the people that I'm working with where I would rather just broach the subject and talk about it like humans and see what we can figure out

18:02 Luke F. Walton Yeah, no, that's great. And I agree that. position of honesty there's also an interesting thing that like inspiration can create its own pace or its own like well of energy you think you're dragging it's towards the end of the night you feel like you're going to call a session and then somebody has an idea and you're like shot of caffeine basically

18:24 Ben Rice Totally. Totally. I mean, I was working on a session today where like the artist showed up and they wrote something yesterday and felt really good at about it and they came in today and they said, I don't know, that just feels sleepy. I've got to rewrite like all the verses. And I said, okay, great. Like, let's hear it.

18:42 Ben Rice And, you know, they rewrote like the verses, something that we spent four hours on yesterday, they redid in an hour and

18:48 Luke F. Walton Hmm.

18:49 Ben Rice it wound up being so much better and their instinct was right.

18:53 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

18:53 Ben Rice And I think that like, one of the things that sometimes we don't realize is how important iterating is, right? You know, like, when I listen to my favorite records, I'm hearing like the final product of like, you know, months, maybe years of like iterating, I didn't hear like all of the steps like going there, right.

19:12 Ben Rice And I think that when we're making records for ourselves it's like being kind enough to you know ourselves as producers and mixers and also giving the artist space to say yeah we've got to iterate we've got to go through a lot of different versions in order to get to that thing that really feels magic

19:29 Luke F. Walton It's a great point, too, because I remember when I was first learning how to mix and I was comparing my mixes to masters. and

19:35 Ben Rice Oh,

19:35 Luke F. Walton like

19:35 Ben Rice yeah.

19:36 Luke F. Walton mix one or mix zero to a master be like why am i so bad it's like well you know it's not exactly apples to apples you got to figure out limiting you got to bring the volume up now you get a little bit closer now you can kind of understand and then maybe mix two or three especially when you're you know newer at it the mix one usually sucks pretty bad because you need to like step away and come back to it you don't have those like battle scars or instincts kind of worn in yet

20:01 Luke F. Walton And finding that out really helped me like have, I don't know, the guts to continue.

20:07 Ben Rice I mean, when I'm doing like a mix, I'll do 20 or 30 versions as my first mix.

20:13 Luke F. Walton Wow, cool.

20:15 Ben Rice and

20:15 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

20:16 Ben Rice it's not necessarily because i'm spending days on it it's just because like i'm i'm working and i'm saving so

20:20 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

20:21 Ben Rice like if if you see like if you were to see like my like file architecture it would be like sometimes the thing that i'm sending out is like mix like 1-28 and somebody's like wait it's not it's not january 28th i'm like no no i know it's not january 28th but like there were 28 moments in this where i was like this might be something that i need to come back to because there's something that feels like

20:41 Ben Rice I'm really good emotionally here, and I'm going to save that, but I'm going to keep going.

20:46 Luke F. Walton Yeah, cool. How often do you do loop back or are you like importing things from older sessions into newer sessions? Like how do you end up using that putty or is it usually just like waypoints that you fully revert to?

20:59 Ben Rice could could be either really

21:00 Luke F. Walton Cool.

21:01 Ben Rice i

21:01 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

21:02 Ben Rice mean i think it depends on how much i lose the plot

21:04 Luke F. Walton Okay. Yeah.

21:05 Ben Rice That's cool. i think i feel like i'm in a good place now like my feeling about mixing is this you know where like there are moments where i'm like really really happy with like how things are feeling and i'm just like in general that i'm like what's coming through the speakers feels the way i want it to feel emotionally and then there are times in my life where i'm just like oh my god

21:28 Ben Rice you know what like why can't I get it like why can't I crack the code and I feel like you know I've just been working really really diligently at it for a number of years and it still takes me time you know and I still am really really critical but I think that the more that I can like zoom out and just be like the little kid you know 16 year old me and be like does this make me feel

21:51 Luke F. Walton Curious about your kind of listening setup as you're mixing i see multiple speakers there are you flipping back and forth do you go in and out of headphones what are the ways that you kind of pull that out or see if it's hitting you in different circumstances

22:08 Ben Rice So I came up on NS10s. I love NS10s. Like I feel like I just, you know, till the day I die, I'm going to want a pair of NS10s around. I don't like headphones.

22:20 Ben Rice i just like i don't know for whatever reason there's something about it that for me like i like the feeling of how the music is moving in a space i got you know i'm a couple years into working on the atcs and that was quite a game changer for me because they just tell you so much and it's the speakers are a lens and whatever speakers you have i mean i've mixed on all sorts of different speakers

22:46 Ben Rice Whatever you have, if you know what the lens is telling you, it can give you really, really good intel. The thing about having good speakers is that it gives you that information quicker because technically the way that's moved, you know, the way that the cones are moving is just...

23:02 Ben Rice it's giving you better information right but i think that like most of the time now i'm working on the atcs i listen on the ns10s i like to listen in mono i still am checking in mono thinking about like how does how does it like come down especially on the ns10s and then like if i'm doing a record

23:24 Ben Rice one of my favorite things to do is I'll just put in my airpods and I'll go for a walk around New York and I'll listen to it the way I'm listening to like any record that I'm a fan of and if there are things that jump out to me where I'm like I need to bring out my phone and like make a note and I'm risking my life because that like bothered me so much that I'm like almost getting hit by like a city bike to like write this like you know time code 232 like I've got a chance it's like

23:51 Ben Rice if it matters like that then I'll go and fix it but if I'm just you know sometimes you sit in the studio and you're like there's always something that you can tweak and you just gotta like step away yeah

24:00 Luke F. Walton Really good advice. I love that too of like the things that break you out of the trance. Yeah, those are those are always the best notes.

24:09 Ben Rice yeah and you know i also i would say i do like the listening in the background quietly you

24:13 Luke F. Walton Yes.

24:14 Ben Rice know like if i've if i've been working for a couple hours try to take a break every 45 minutes or an hour just give my ears like a little rest you know i've got art books around the studio i love to just like sit and just like look at you can open to any page and just read a little bit and like look at art and then in the background you've got the mix going and the things that jump out to you that pull you out of

24:38 Ben Rice that I feel like can also be insightful as far as like what you really need to work on yeah

24:42 Luke F. Walton Agreed. And that's a great point, too. And like, I also think it reflects so much of how music is actually listened to and consumed. Like people are living their lives. It's on maybe it's quietly in the background. And if there's a moment where that vocal like jumps out and interrupts your trance, like, okay, let's smooth that out. Let's let's preserve those beautiful moments.

24:58 Ben Rice yeah that's definitely how I feel

25:00 Luke F. Walton That's good. It's good. I actually I would love to share a little bit about the speaker world and mono versus stereo for some of the listeners that might not have thought too much about that that might have just been like a somebody go huh why does he listen in mono or what is it about these NS10s that there is a little bit of apprehension in his voice as though there is some some people that love NS10s and some people that hate them I'd love to maybe

25:23 Ben Rice Yeah.

25:23 Luke F. Walton nerd out a little bit on the speaker side just in case somebody isn't plugged in there

25:29 Ben Rice Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like somebody could definitely fact check all of this. And so, you know, please do put it into AI and, you know, see if this is the best way to explain it.

25:40 Ben Rice But I mean, the NS10s were bookshelf speakers and they kind of became classic studio speakers for a reason because they're pretty mid-rangey the low end is not always there right like that's one of the things sometimes it can be great to pair it with a sub i have a sub there were a number of years where i was mixing with ns10s and a sub and i found that that was like a good way to like extend the low end and i had the crossover on the sub pretty high maybe around like 300 so that i could get like like really have the overlap of like the low mids you

26:14 Ben Rice with the speaker so it just felt like continuous as opposed to like these two different zones as

26:18 Luke F. Walton Yeah, okay

26:19 Ben Rice far as checking in mono i think that that's one when you're checking phase right you're checking to see if there's things that you're doing in the stereo field that when you bring the two speakers together if you're canceling anything and you're looking at you

26:37 Ben Rice you know do your reverbs disappear do your rooms sound kind of wonky sometimes you can lose your low end if you have these like a lot of it i mean a lot of times we're getting stems and we're getting there's a great new plug-in that i'm going to get that

26:53 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

26:53 Ben Rice is it like goes through i forget what it's called but like goes through your folders of stems and and like splits them out if they're actually like it's actually monophiles maybe you know what i'm talking

27:05 Ben Rice yeah about yeah it's no uh i don't i it sounds like a good idea though nice like it just like showed up for me on instagram like yesterday i was like i've got to get this because it's it's one it's one of the things like you get stems and you're like this is actually a monophile but it just printed a stereo file so the the compatibility and also

27:26 Ben Rice you know when you go out in the world so much you know it's like something's going to play in a bar and like they've mono'd out like their system sometimes

27:32 Ben Rice Yeah. they do sometimes they don't sometimes you just get half a mix where you're sitting and sometimes you get like a mono version of the mix exactly which I love you know I'm a big tambourine fan but I think I think it can be helpful to just you know do that I've worked I've done some mixing work for a gentleman

27:52 Ben Rice named Jim Sclavunos who like he he's just like a New York City legend but he plays with Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and he's like a producer and he's been like just indie legend and I remember like working with him and like how much he was just like you have to listen quietly you have to listen in mono and like we would spend like you know we'd mix a song a day and it would be like you

28:27 Ben Rice flip to mono we start like listening really really quietly and we would just pick apart the entire mix and sure enough he was right when you do that on NS10s and then you open things back up all of a sudden your

28:40 Luke F. Walton yeah yeah

28:40 Ben Rice mix is a lot clearer yeah

28:42 Luke F. Walton it makes sense it makes sense i mean especially for like indie rock where so much of the musical information is like low mid uh like guitars and all kind of stuff it's like you really want everybody to be working together their live drum kits uh

28:54 Ben Rice Mm.

28:55 Luke F. Walton we've gotten so much into like electronic world but so much about live drum kits that i love and hate is just how full spectrum they can be like i was mixing a kick drum and it was literally just like that could be a mix on its own just looking at the visualizers like good lord i need to make a decision this is a huge kick drum

29:13 Ben Rice Yeah. yeah and it sounds so good and then you're like i want to preserve i've got the best kick drum

29:19 Luke F. Walton sound i know

29:19 Ben Rice ever i can't eq this and you're like no i gotta i gotta eq it or i gotta just turn it way down

29:25 Luke F. Walton exactly exactly no of course it's decisions but that's what the beauty of yeah good speakers or or um

29:32 Luke F. Walton forcing uncomfortable situations like mono or quiet or walking around with some ambience it forces you to address yeah the things that i don't know if you weren't listening carefully or if you're only listening one environment might be good enough might be

29:46 Ben Rice Yeah,

29:46 Luke F. Walton something you can glaze over

29:46 Ben Rice I hope that was a, you know, you got to fact check it with ChatGPT, but that's

29:51 Luke F. Walton that's my understanding so

29:52 Ben Rice my best attempt.

29:54 Luke F. Walton so it's either uh i mean if if everyone agrees in it colloquially chat gbt is just going to parrot that heard that back so for all intents and purposes we'll just call it true

30:04 Ben Rice Yeah.

30:04 Luke F. Walton really curious about kind of your work as you were coming up and learning from you know just all these great producers like we already talked Gus Van Gogh but like like Eddie Kramer for example

30:17 Ben Rice Yeah.

30:17 Luke F. Walton just like total legend Jimi Hendrix led Zeppelin like how what did what did you glean from kind of those mentorship opportunities and how do you take that forward into you know 2026 Fix.

30:27 Ben Rice man i mean so i feel really lucky i

30:30 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

30:30 Ben Rice feel really lucky that i i wound up in like those sorts of situations and a lot of it i think for me was just being not afraid to ask for a little bit of context my first like job job was being a runner in like a big recording studio here in new york city my music teacher saw that i was like really passionate about music and he was like

30:53 Ben Rice let me see if I can get you like an internship and he he did so even at 16 I was like getting coffee wrapping cables you know getting like microphones I had no idea what I was doing but I was doing it and I was around this so by the time that I was in bands and like we were getting into studios and the majority of people were just like in party mode

31:18 Ben Rice I was in like, this is a master class mode where like I would just like sit there as quietly as I could and just like watch like every single move that the producers would make and then at the end of the session ask questions.

31:32 Ben Rice I mean, I was in a band, we had had a record deal, we got out of the record deal and like I was starting to like produce a record for us for the band and Eddie Kramer was doing like one of his like waves tours where he was like

31:46 Ben Rice Yeah. here's my new waves plugins and I was like okay like this is an opportunity to go like see him talk at like guitar center and I just you know went and at the end of the tutorial people were going up and having him sign stuff and I got in line and I went up and I you know he said what you don't have anything for me sign what do you want me to do kid you

32:05 Ben Rice basically and I was just like well I don't want you to sign anything I want to talk to you and be like will you mix my band's record and he just like stopped to like kind of laugh to me and he looked he goes okay he goes go wait over there so you know like I sat there for like 45 minutes and waited you know and then he came over and basically very politely grilled me on how I had recorded it and he was like okay

32:31 Ben Rice Sounds like you did the correct thing. Send it to me. Send me like the three best songs and if I think there's something then, you know, we'll talk. So I sent him, you know, three tunes and he called me up a week later and said, come out to LA, let's finish this.

32:46 Luke F. Walton All right, you interrupt this very important broadcast. What I'm asking for is for you to rate it five stars, share it with your friends. This is like the most important thing for this podcast to grow. So if you want to do this, you go into the podcast screen, right?

32:57 Luke F. Walton You click on the on the dot dot dot on spotify under there it says rate show and you go and you click it five stars if you could do that for me that's the best way for the algorithms and all that stuff to share it out with the world i know that it's a lot to ask but if you could please please please just please just hit those three dots and a five star would really help us out and helps us you know get the get the word out and spread the love of music so thank you if you're listening on youtube you know what to do like subscribe all that good stuff thank you so much and here's the rest of the episode

33:25 Luke F. Walton Cool.

33:25 Ben Rice so that was just you know it's one of those things where like it's hard you know like looking back like it doesn't even make sense but when you're a kid you're not afraid to like ask for these things and then you know you get in the studio and you're just watching like this process but you're watching on something that matters to you because it's your band's record it's not just theoretical it's not like like I was never somebody like I didn't go to college like I

33:52 Ben Rice I learned better from being in it and being with people and being like, you know, just being immersed in that way. So it was just such a great way for me to like have like that kind of like mentorship and like the little like nuggets that you just get from those situations, there's there's nothing like it.

34:10 Ben Rice Yeah, that makes total sense. I mean, I feel the same way when you're watching like a plug-in demo and you listen to the demo song that they pull up and you're like. That's just not what I make or that's

34:21 Ben Rice yeah not what I like I you know Like how do I how do I evaluate this given this song? I don't know It's a good point though, so personal

34:31 Ben Rice right because like so so many of the demos are you're just like why wouldn't listen to this with or without the plug-in on it so

34:38 Ben Rice Exactly it doesn't it doesn't have any emotional impact and Right. It's like I guess the saturation sounds good

34:45 Ben Rice sounds more saturated i agree yeah but also i mean i feel like now like we're we're kind of in this like golden age of you know like mix with the masters like

34:56 Ben Rice Yeah, we're the information that's available to like the generation of like producers and mixers and artists who are coming up it's incredible relative to like what was there i mean there was like something called like the mixing engineers handbook that like i had like i don't know if you know and

35:13 Ben Rice Yeah, I've read some of it, yeah. like you know 80 of it to me was just like gobbledygook because i was like i have like i don't know but then in the back there were like interviews and it was like those like little interviews that were like that or tape up was the only way to like get access to like how producers and mixers actually thought to the fact that we have like mix with the masters and podcasts and it's like we're living in this like era where there's just such great information out there and

35:42 Ben Rice And I guess for me, like, you know, not that I'm anywhere near like on that level as far as like Eddie Kramer, but I always like want to make myself available to, you know, anybody that I can as far as like pass on whatever insight or information that I have, because it's a gift to get it.

35:58 Ben Rice And it's one of those things where like, you know, you just want to pass it on and see it be useful and see what somebody else can make with it too.

36:05 Ben Rice Absolutely. And also like, I don't know, Eddie Kramer, obviously amazing. uh i think that they're just different skill sets throughout the industry especially for those that are able to get something that is rough or new or like first experience in a recording studio that is such an underutilized and under talked about skill because those are just a lot of people that are like making their areas sound or working with yeah up and coming artists a lot of the biggest mix engineers haven't done that in a long time or if they do it's somebody that

36:36 Ben Rice that came to them with like pristine recorded tracks there are some gaps i think in the information space that

36:42 Ben Rice Yeah, i think conversations like this help fill in what I agree completely. do you think about the combination of like tactile versus digital like obviously we're talking plugins clearly both like plugins but i also see a lot of gear behind you how do you try to navigate that how do you like decide whether you're going to do it in the box or do it physically

36:58 Ben Rice Well, I mean, my workflow is pretty hybrid, which I like. yeah honestly i Yeah, think

37:03 Ben Rice like that you know the generation like maybe i'm dating myself but the generation that i like came up with like was like right like it was too late to like have really experienced what it was to like have like big budgets but like we heard tell of it and like like one person removed where like they were like two years ago we would have had like a million dollar budget for this project but like now our budget is like twenty five thousand dollars

37:31 Ben Rice and you know I came up with a 002 and perfect example the record that I did that Eddie Kramer you know worked with my band to finish I did that with a 002 and a Mackie and one of the things that he loved to do we were in the what's the studio in LA had a beautiful API console

37:51 Ben Rice but he would you know all the people who would come into the room he would be like what what preamps did they use to record this and you know what preamps people guess they guess neve they guessed apr they guessed ssl because like those are the preamps that you would guess and he would just laugh and lose and be like no they recorded on a mackie and i think it's like one of those things where it just goes to show you that you can make great art with whatever tools you have the deeper that you go down

38:20 Ben Rice go down this rabbit hole the more that you notice like the nuances between the different tools because that's what they are right but like there's the allure of using all of the analog stuff it's beautiful and it's it sounds amazing but i'm also like if it wasn't for pro tools like i don't know that i'd be here today man

38:40 Ben Rice Yeah. i mean pro tools like gave me a life in music so i'm like i think about sometimes i'm like man like If it wasn't for like Pro Tools and a 002 and an iMac, like

38:50 Ben Rice Right. there's no way that I would be here and I don't even know what I'd be doing with my life. So I love the digital stuff too.

38:57 Ben Rice That's a great point too. It's access and it's the ability to work with a lot of different artists. I feel like part of those big budgets were tied to like, hey, everyone here is on retainer now. Like you are working on this record.

39:12 Ben Rice yeah yeah versus like smaller budgets like hey like you can't monopolize 100% of my time like I'm gonna have other stuff to do and pro

39:20 Ben Rice yeah tools allows that to like kind of happen and i mean i i think that like for the types of projects that i work on a lot of it is

39:29 Ben Rice will record with like analog gear and get it into the computer and i'm a big fan of committing just

39:36 Ben Rice Me like too. commitment whether you're using plugins or you're using soft sense or you're using real sense or you know analog sense shouldn't say real sense just commit if you like the sound commit to it that's what it is and i think that that's a way that like with whatever your setup is you know maybe you have some guitar pedals and you're plugging those in just like make that be the sound

39:59 Ben Rice And then when you go back to it later, what you're starting with. Even if you're staying in the box with your mix, it has that imprint and it has a sonic identity.

40:08 Ben Rice Outstanding advice. I couldn't agree more. And I also think that it's one of those weird like resource abundance curses where if your machine can handle 35 soft synths all running at the same time, it's like good for you. You shouldn't be. Make some decisions. Print those things.

40:25 Ben Rice Yeah. Yeah. My old computer could not. My old computer would die after. I have to, like, do. And so, like, I had to make decisions, and I would always be glad that I did. I wouldn't, I would very rarely revert, and so nowadays I do the exact same thing of, like. I am running a plug-in chain that is clearly producer mind. I am going to make a decision as a producer, just like I would if it was analog gear.

40:48 Ben Rice And then my mixing brain can make some tweaks. It doesn't mean that it's done forever, but it's like lock in what makes you feel good right now. And then you can always make tweaks later, but not in the ground up kind of way, not in the like, let's change the amp sim. Let's put it in a completely different room. It's like. Separate

41:07 Ben Rice yeah out those concerns. a hundred percent i did a session blanking on the producer's name i should have done he'd i think he'd worked with like chance the rapper and this was like maybe a while ago and he came into my studio and he opened up his session and there were zero plugins

41:27 Ben Rice Whoa. and i was and i was just like dude like like how did like what is going on here and he's like being like i'm in so many different studios working on so many different things he was like i don't know if that's a soft synth or if that's a real synth he was just like I just commit at the end of every session I just commit everything so it just exists as audio and I was like that is like the sickest way to work and

41:49 Ben Rice agreed I I just love that and it's something that I've you know just kept going as much as I possibly can yeah

41:56 Ben Rice so cool it also kind of raises the bar of what you're doing here it's like hey we are not turning back let's make this cool it's only forward

42:07 Ben Rice And I think it also forces everybody to be present, right? Yeah, yeah. Because it's like, what do you think? you think it's cool i feel good about this okay like let's commit to it and let's move forward and

42:18 Ben Rice Yeah. i also think that as far as like we work in this this world where like not always the most tangible and it can be so ambiguous as far as like going back to what we're talking about earlier it can be so ambiguous like when we're trying to have conversations about how does it make us feel what do we think and when you commit to something you're telling everybody

42:37 Ben Rice when you commit to something you're telling everybody this is what I think and then the mixing engineer whether it's you or somebody else down the road they could say wow this is really bright like they were crazy their ears must have been fried because like there's way too much like like you know whatever but you're telling somebody this is what i think i think this should be a bright sound as

42:58 Luke F. Walton Yep

42:58 Ben Rice opposed to here's a clean di which has no processing on it here's like my plug-in chain which you may or may not have and then i also did this alternate and then there's actually a second alternate because i wasn't sure if i had gone too far on that one so this is dialed back 30 and you're just like well i don't even know what like Like what what's going on?

43:19 Luke F. Walton Yes.

43:20 Ben Rice I just need one. I just need one that feels right

43:23 Luke F. Walton Yeah. And then you can always make tweaks, but you're right. You give me something crazy bright, I'm not going to make it dark. I'm not going to go all the way the other end. I might tame it a little bit, but you're signaling to me, I want this bright and loud and upfront. It's like, cool. Let's

43:40 Ben Rice I respect

43:40 Luke F. Walton make the other things make it work, then frame it. like it might be crazy but like that's how a lot of cool music gets made is there's something absolutely bonkers of the mix and the rest of everybody just kind of accounts for it and then it's okay

43:52 Ben Rice Yeah, that's absolutely how I think about it.

43:55 Luke F. Walton Yeah, I like that a lot. I also think it kind of pays off what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation about the Chinese democracy trap of just forever iterating is when you start making decisions,

44:04 Luke F. Walton it speeds up the process and then it allows for the next chain of decisions to emerge. When you don't make any decisions, that's when you can really get into that whirlpool and just never, never really escaped the event horizon. You just.

44:16 Ben Rice Yes.

44:19 Luke F. Walton yeah

44:19 Ben Rice Yeah,

44:19 Luke F. Walton yeah

44:19 Ben Rice so true.

44:20 Luke F. Walton which i've seen a lot and i i think that's like a big trap and a thing that prevents people from putting themselves out there or they will get a bunch of different mix engineers if they have the budget to mix something and then they'll get decision paralysis because they didn't make the decision on like whose vibe fits with this you can always change your mind later but like i personally think it's better to like pick a mix engineer mix with that mix engineer and then decide oh it's not a right fit okay now pick it

44:45 Luke F. Walton pick a different one but like that usually doesn't happen because you usually made the right decision

44:49 Ben Rice I agree. It's like dating.

44:52 Luke F. Walton yeah

44:52 Ben Rice You know what I mean? Like at a certain point, you've got to make like if you want to get to like the next phase, you've got to make a decision.

44:58 Luke F. Walton yeah

44:59 Ben Rice You've got to make a commitment. And I think great things come out of making commitments. And sometimes the great thing that comes out of making a commitment is realizing that it's the incorrect decision. and

45:10 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

45:10 Ben Rice that's totally valid but

45:11 Luke F. Walton Uh-huh.

45:12 Ben Rice the only way that you can get there is because you made that decision you're like oh wait time out like I need to go in this direction and then you're like okay for the next record maybe I don't hire you know somebody who's like insert x and like that's like you know they were so involved in like this kind of sound and I feel like they project too much and then you go in the other direction and then sometimes you you go in for the next record and you go back to the same person you say hey

45:38 Ben Rice hey we already have this rapport we know each other we've been through this let's try it again and

45:44 Luke F. Walton Yeah,

45:44 Ben Rice based on like what we learned from working through this last time let's start there and then let's recalibrate because these are some of the things that are really important to me about this project and like both are valid but it comes through the commitment

45:59 Luke F. Walton there's clarity in that commitment and just like you were saying like you can always rewrite the verses

46:04 Ben Rice yeah

46:04 Luke F. Walton yeah you're in charge in charge it's like we could get to the mix and be like hey you know this kick drum sounds bad it sucks to change a kick drum in a mix but you can

46:14 Ben Rice there's a there's a great producer brad cook like he did like the bonnie vera stuff and

46:20 Ben Rice okay he's yeah he's amazing and i was i was working at a studio called sonic ranch in texas and

46:25 Ben Rice i know he that place was yeah have you been there dude i've never been there but i've i've familiar i've watched videos from there it

46:31 Ben Rice it's amazing it's seems so cool it's like it's a wonderland yeah but he he was there working on another project

46:41 Ben Rice and I think I forget exactly how it came up but one of the great things about that studio is that like whoever you are and whatever you're doing you're just like crossing paths with these like incredible like music minds and like you're having breakfast and they're having breakfast and one of the things that came up in the conversation was just like oh yeah like you know we'll be make you know we'll be mixing and I always have like a mic set up because you never know when you're gonna have to

47:08 Ben Rice got to do a guitar overdub or like punch in a vocal and it was like one of those things for me at that point where I was just like oh wow

47:17 Ben Rice okay permission granted you can make these changes anytime like the clay is still wet like

47:21 Ben Rice yeah yeah you can you can go back you can punch in you can change the lyric and another one of those things where you're like okay the people who are making these like really like emotionally impactful records they've given themselves that permission

47:34 Ben Rice it's really good and it's it is that it's a it's an interesting duality like there's there's friction inside of or tension inside of this of like you can give yourself too much permission and you never finish

47:44 Luke F. Walton permission where you can give yourself too little permission and then you dread this thing every time it comes up in the second verse or some things only emerge i find this often where especially if i'm getting uh tracks from somebody that i had nothing to do with their recording process and i strip it down i start to like explore okay where does everything sit you add a little bit more clarity and you go like there's a huge gap here or you send you send it back to them like this isn't quite working and it's because

48:12 Ben Rice the rough mix or whatever they were working on didn't expose that part of the arrangement and so Yeah. like the mix can can give that clarity of like what you need to do that you didn't realize you didn't you needed to do back when you're working at the rough

48:25 Ben Rice totally yeah like sometimes things are masked and then the artist hears it and they and they have an idea there was always something that they were searching for but the fact that you gave them like that new vantage point on like their song then they then it's like totally clear to them this missing piece that they couldn't find otherwise yeah

48:45 Ben Rice Yeah, it's really special. It's really special. I also love sometimes with bands that have a lot of ideas.

48:52 Luke F. Walton you'll find like some crazy ideas that in the rough are just completely inaudible it's like some weird little things like that's the coolest part of the song that's

49:01 Ben Rice yeah yeah

49:01 Luke F. Walton the best riff

49:02 Ben Rice i always feel like i'm like crate digging or like going to like a thrift shop like when i like you know get like sessions like that and you're just going through like it's like synth like one through six and you're like okay like somewhere in here

49:17 Ben Rice there's going to be something that's totally buried that could just make it and then you find it and you're like oh it becomes this moment it's funny that you're saying like verse two verse two is like always like the example that i give as well i feel like there are two examples that like audio like you know people go to and it's like using verse two as an example and using snare drum sounds as examples

49:37 Ben Rice Totally, totally.

49:39 Luke F. Walton I do both often.

49:41 Ben Rice Me too.

49:43 Luke F. Walton They're loud moments. Verse 2 is like, okay, why do you want me to do this again?

49:47 Ben Rice Yep.

49:48 Luke F. Walton And then the snare drum is like freaking loud and in your face or not, but it's ever

49:53 Ben Rice Yeah.

49:54 Luke F. Walton present and it's yeah, those are good examples.

49:56 Ben Rice But I go crate digging for like those like little like sounds or like magic moments that you can be that can like help keep the song going for verse two.

50:05 Ben Rice Yeah. And I feel like they often are buried in the rough. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point. Curious, what do you do with like low end? I know some people are very like, carve it all out if it's not meant to be there, leave the room for the kick and the bass. Do you like leaving it in? What's kind of your take vocals since weird things that can have some rumble?

50:24 Ben Rice I think it really depends on the genre. Yeah. Like, I think that it's one of those things where it feels different emotionally when you cut it out than if you leave it. Just in like broad strokes, the options really are you cut it out or you turn it down. Like those are kind of like your two like broad stroke options like when you're confronted with that. And I think that sometimes if you cut too much that you wind up having a feel maybe.

50:50 Ben Rice too punchy or you wind up having like a certain amount of like clarity that might not be what the artist is looking for genre wise and feeling wise because sometimes there's a bit of like the murk and the overlap that

51:05 Ben Rice Yeah. can actually be beneficial emotionally I mean one of the things that I think about and this is like I do this early on in a mix is I think about like what key the song is in

51:18 Luke F. Walton Okay.

51:18 Ben Rice Right.

51:18 Luke F. Walton Yeah.

51:18 Ben Rice And I think about like, what is like my fundamental like what like where is my low end going to be?

51:25 Luke F. Walton Okay.

51:26 Ben Rice And I think about whether like my bass or if there's like a synth or a sub synth or a kick drum, like how that stack is going to be because, you know, not to like state the obvious, but like frequency note, right, like that corresponds. So when we're boosting, you know.

51:44 Ben Rice 60 on a pull tack we're basically boosting a b so thinking about like who gets like what frequency and i think about that as far as the architecture of what i'm building so even if i'm not necessarily going in and cutting it out i make a decision as far as like is the bass going to live below the kick or is it going to live above the kick and i think that for things that move quicker like a faster paced tempo

52:11 Ben Rice I'll often find myself clearing out more space because the length, if you leave the length, it can slow down your mix. So I think that so much of it is like genre dependent or tempo and key dependent. One other, I mean, you know, nerdy thing. I love like the SSL plugins, the SSL, the 9000. What's the, it's Plugin Alliance.

52:35 Ben Rice Plug and lights? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I love, I mean, it's the SSL thing where you just go in, you've got like your low end and you've got your top end. And I think that for like when I'm doing like punchier rocks. rock stuff I definitely you know I go and I just get rid of a little bit of low end and then like I take off the fizz on the top and you can create a ton of space in your mix that way

52:58 Ben Rice totally yeah controlling those highs and lows that makes total sense and i really love uh your answer i thought that was really novel about tempo like release and like breathing and movement in the mix and then also fundamentals because yeah often i think people just kind of like low more big but like really thinking about like yeah where is where is that fundamental what am i boosting um especially the low frequencies because all everything low trickles up because of the harmonic

53:25 Ben Rice just nature of hearing and music yeah I leave like one of the what are they called like the frequency graphs that like correspond

53:32 Ben Rice yeah to the notes like open like on my computer all the time I know some of them because you know you look at the same frequencies you know you you know your favorite frequencies but

53:46 Luke F. Walton yeah

53:46 Ben Rice but you know i find it to be helpful because then i can just go and i can be like okay like and i should also say this i'm not always a fan of pro q i

53:54 Luke F. Walton yeah

53:54 Ben Rice reach for the ssl more i think that even within that where you're like not trying to go into like surgery mode knowing like okay i'm going to use this tool and like even with like a pull tech since we're using it as an example like there's like 30 and there's 60 and there's 100 and like those are different notes

54:12 Ben Rice notes so if you're going to have that like on your snare drum maybe I love it on a snare drum if you're going to

54:19 Ben Rice For have that like example. on a bass guitar like that how those move and like how that extends it it just changes the feel of the music so thinking about like how that responds to the key and the tempo

54:32 Luke F. Walton Really good answer. Really, really good answer. So this show is called Love Music More. I like to ask all of my guests one final question. So Ben, why do you love music?

54:43 Ben Rice I love music because it's been a companion for me for my whole life. I mean, like some of my earliest memories are... And me listening to, you know, music and seeing like the needles go on like my parents, like, you know, record player, like I love like the traveling Wilburys stuff and the Beatles stuff like that's what I.

55:04 Ben Rice grew up with and music through all the different phases of my life has just been there and it's led to so many meaningful experiences again you know what we're talking about completion of the process like I've been able to tour I've been able to work in you know all these different places around the world thanks to music and thanks to music being this like companion for me and every day it reveals something new so I just

55:30 Ben Rice I'm obsessed. Me too.

55:35 Luke F. Walton So then where can people get in touch, listen to all of your work and maybe maybe come out and book you?

55:42 Ben Rice Yeah, I have a production website, benriceproductions.com. I'm on Instagram, benricemusic. My studio is called DeGraw Sound. And yeah, hit me up. We'd love to chat. And you know, if you're ever in Brooklyn, man, come by. Say hello.

55:59 Ben Rice Absolutely. We should hang. I've been meaning to get out because I love Brooklyn so much. And I live in San Diego, so I get up to LA a decent amount, but there is this kind of funny energy of like, man, I'm craving a bigger city every once in a while. San Diego is great, but it's just so laid back.

56:16 Ben Rice that I can chill and it's nice it's a good like home base but it does not have the same vibe and energy is like you're saying dodging city bikes walking through Brooklyn checking a mix hell

56:27 Ben Rice yeah well we got yeah i mean anytime hit me up we'll do like the brooklyn pizza tour

56:32 Ben Rice yeah you know