AI and the Philosophy of Music (and Everything, really)

0:00 Music Appreciation. What's good guys. It is Scoobert Doobert here. Continuing our conversation our one-sided conversation about AI and music generative AI

0:22 I actually just finished making album art for a little stem project that I'll talk more about later

0:29 Using weird DALL-E magic plugging in stuff and getting it to spit out weirder stuffAnd every time I interact with AI I feel wow this is neatBut is it much more than that?The case that I was trying to make on that last podcast was go interact with itDon't let a blog or a podcast or whatever overhype this thing go try it

0:57 Because I think what you'll end up finding out is that the boring stuff is super underwhelming

1:04 Once the once the shine kind of wears off. So like for example one of the examples wascapybara in a space suit and it did it pretty wellYou know that was that was one of the things thatOpenAI's DALL-E creator was trying to say hey try try something like this orAlbum art with stained glass and you know it's fine.

1:25 It's not something that anyone would ever release, but it's fine The magic starts to come out when you startGetting creative yourself and pushing the machine in ways that it doesn't necessarily want to be pushedAnd I want to create an analogy to distortionSo rock guitar distortion big old brash guitar chordsCompare that to jazz guitaror earlyElectric guitar that distortion ends up creating the sound.

2:00 It's a new tool And the best part about that new tool is when it gets pushed into an unexpected way

2:07 Wasn't necessarily you know like these amps and stuff weren't necessarily intended to be overdriven to be distortedJust like listen to those words those sound highly negativeIn the same way that these algorithms these AIPlatformsThey're not necessarily made toRespond to prompts in the ways thatOutput the coolest stuff

2:37 So like instead of just writing a sentence maybe start giving it weird stream of consciousness

2:43 And that's where you know like like there are lots of hands the hands are dripping on the floorRaining eyeballs like these weird like in a surrealist Salvador Dali styleBut watercolor you know like these kind of like contradictory and floaty thingsAnd with enough repetition you can kind of be like yes like this butChange this part of the image to be like this and now now you're having a conversation with this thing

3:09 And then it's you're seeing it transcend from being a you knowI hand this over to the robot to the robot outputs a thing and I take it and go do the work insteadIt becomes a conversation between the twoBut that sounds weird right because it's AI but take away the label and then it starts to make more senseI have a conversation with my guitarIt responds in certain ways I respond in certain ways to that

3:33 I change the pickup I change the amp I change the setting I add more take away distortion and now my playingActually shifts as well because it's an input output feedback loopAnd that's what I'm trying to say with the coolest stuff with AI is thatAnd so I say all of thisTo go back to my original point.

3:55 This is neat, but is it much more than that Because I actually think that the developers the people that are working on this stuff are missing the whole point of music creation

4:06 It's just like how you know like the metaverse kind of misses the point of like traveling or doing stuff with friends

4:16 It's like like only a certain type of person would think that strapping goggles on in a room and flailing your limbs aboutWould be the same as like actually going to play pickleball with somebody

4:30 Which like more and more people are playing now. I don't think there's a coincidenceLike they tried to make that a metaverse thing and now I was like people are nah, I actually want to just go play with someoneOr like how colonizing MarsKind of misses the pointIt's neat. I would like to see that happenBut is thatWorth prioritizing over saving the planet?

4:59 I mean likeThis escapist this myth of like futurism I think ends up getting in the way

5:07 Of actually being more human and allowing these tools to integrate rather than redefine

5:15 And we as consumers as users as creators as artists we get to have a lot of say in that discussionWe shouldn't just be led by these tech moguls off the cliffAnd I also think that we deserve some blameLike I think that musicians have done a very very bad job at telling our storyWe've done a bad job at claiming our worth our honor and our art

5:42 And I actually think that we've been like complicit in some of the things thatI don't know we have our own myths about like the the greedy businessman or whateverBut in reality too long artists have just given upTheir story to the business people and said yes make me successfulAnd then they rail against itWhen really they should have never given that up in the first place

6:08 Like if you if you turn over your entire persona your entire identity your all of your socials all of your thingsAnd then you complain about where it goes. It's like are you not somewhat complicit in that tooIt makes me think about Jimi Hendrix saying music is a religion

6:26 But do we end up doing a good job of spreading that good word right or like believing in it

6:33 And I think that now is the time to start to sort this out and have these conversations because

6:39 If we're going to do it it better happen now otherwise music is going to go off the cliffWe have to reframe musicWhat are our like needs what are our goalsAnd then by doing that that'll help inform the tool makers the developersSo they can focus their efforts on making tools instead of trying to take the job or eliminate the creatorLike could you imagine the

7:06 The guitar like a guitar company going the way of the player pianoIt doesn't even need a guitarist anymore look at this magical device

7:18 They're not even gonna do that because no one wants it nobody even really wanted a player pianoyou know likeThis thing in engineering of like just because we can't doesn't mean we shouldAnd we need to be a part of that conversation with generative AI artist doCreators

7:40 It's not even content. It's like spreading like the essence of the universe into things like that's not just content. That's creationFocus on that sideAnd instead of saying like okay, let's just have the AI do it.

7:52 It's like let's not run away from itBut let's recategorize it talk about it as a conversation with creative people And so how do we get out of this?

8:03 You know how do we get out of the commodification the commodification and trivializationIs it hard words trivialization of musicIn part that's been driven by tech platforms But I would also say that we've been willfully complicit in this too. I have as well not pointing fingers.

8:22 I'm joining inLike think about what internet 2.0 even is you know, it's content delivery It's like trying to get get the user to be addicted to a platformAnd they do that by having entertaining stuff on itBut the tech platforms don't actually make the entertaining stuffInstead like early youtube. What do they do?

8:42 They just allowed pirated content to be on it early facebook video They just allowed pirated content to be on it

8:51 And by doing that they brought people to the platform and they go oh no, we're gonna clean up our actBut in order to clean up your act you have to start paying some creatorsSo that's how you get you know PewDiePie and all these people that become like big youtubersBecause the the

9:08 Platforms themselves realized that they built their platform. They built their notoriety on pirated workAnd that wasn't gonna last foreverAnd so they used all of that money to re-buy us

9:24 And I'm not necessarily saying that that's like there's anything we can necessarily do about that

9:30 But I think we have to understand like where we've been how we've been complicit in itHow we continue to be complicit in itAnd then try and take back our powerYou know, it's the third parties. It's the artistsThat end up filling the platform with meaningIt's like what makes an iPhone and iPhone

9:50 Delete all of the apps and eliminate the internet usage like say that you you have no phone planYou have no Wi-Fi and you have no apps is your iPhone entertainingA lot of that is like it's it's a portalAnd the portal is to our soulsSo if you look at it from their perspective

10:15 The best way to do it the best way to like save themselves is to eliminate the creators entirely justHave it be all AI contentBecause then they own it all they own the platform and the contentBut to me that's likeThat's like antimatter, you know, it's like the opposite of art anti-artAndThose things need to be separateI know that I'm being a little bit dramatic but all of the stuff I think

10:47 With AI you got to be careful. We've watched a million sci-fi movies just about thisAnd if we screw up it's not necessarily that we're going to create SkyNetIt's that we could kind of lose an essential part of being humanWe could lose essential like part of music and an artIt's like for exampleHave you seen those tight little TikTok videos that are like here's how I made my song

11:11 And it's 30 seconds and they deconstruct their workAs though it took them 30 seconds to make the songOr the videos that you see of people like YouTube videos in the studioWhere everyone's just like vibe in and they're actually like wow magic's just flowing outJust set up the microphone and it's goingBut in reality they're all lip syncing and they already recorded the song

11:30 And there's like hour after hour after hour of trying to channel something failing failingPartially succeeding always just partially succeedingYou know even the people that say oh yeah, I wrote this song in 30 minutesI've been there I've written songs fastIt's never that fastIt's like think about all the stuff that you had to do to get to the point where you could synthesize an idea that you had into a

11:56 Intangible asset that quicklySo all that add that in and then think about all of the other stuff that goes around itSo it's like I built a recording studio over the course of 10 yearsI developed my skills over the course of 15And then I wrote a song in 30 minutesBut then it took us three weeks to record it and then mix it and then master it

12:14 And we involved you know 20 different people all to do album art and and arranging and play on itIt's like it did it really take 30 minutes like stop you know stop trivializing it this stuff takes a lot of effortIt takes a lot of time and

12:30 I don't want to be so dismissive about it and I'm saying this for fans for myselfYou know, it's like I'm going to make these videos I know I am butIt's it's a false narrative that we're playing into in exchange for some likesAnd it's like kind of sad and it's kind of likeIt's treated with a little bit more respect both of us fans artists everybodyAnd these platforms they reward it they demand it

12:56 And they preach the narrative of you can't be successful without us you have to pay your titheAnd I do it tooBut I'm saying like if we can see it for what it is

13:11 Then maybe we can view the platforms just like we do AI just like we do instruments as another toolSomething to have a conversation withIt's not something to sell your soul to that's something to go all in on not something to rely on

13:25 Say Facebook's going to be the thing the meta is going to be the thing that's going to make me successful or even SpotifyYou know, it's like that putting all of your eggs in that basket is justIt's supposed to be a conversation it's supposed to be a partnership rather than a turning over of the keysAnd again, I'm I'm all about going fastAI promises near instant creationBut I don't want to go fast and make crap

13:55 The fast is not even as much about the output even though I've talked about that a lotIt's more about being fast to clear road box roadblocksYou know like findingChanneling a flow state getting in that vibe where time just disappearsThat's the reason to go fast is because you're trying to as quickly as possible get into that heightened state of awarenessSo that you can make decisions that you couldn't make otherwise

14:20 Because you're in the flow you're in the vibe you create an idea and then that idea ends up building its own momentumIt's own inertia and you follow it all the way through and if AI can help me do that more awesome

14:32 But if it takes that away from me, that's like one of the main reasons why I am aliveIt's like that is that is the point ofCreativity for me is that state being thereYou take that away from me.

14:50 We got a problemSo what I mean by like its own gravity isThe idea the nugget ends up going on a journey through the unexpectedYou allow that idea to sprout to reveal itself And then always imperfectly actualize because it has to be filtered throughThe imperfections of my musicianshipMy inability to do certain things that are in my headBut that's part of the magic

15:20 You turn all of that over does the magic continue to existI just listened to Marvin Gaye's what's going onAnd I thought that was a perfect example of a non AI recordThere's so much soul andsynergy and like an essentialLittle wisp of that time period that era the struggleAnd in that recordingIt's not justBreath it's not just soulIt'sEverybody is is so at the top of their game, but also so loose

16:04 Listening to each other vibing creating groovecreating aEntire sonic statement across every single one of those tunes that makes it feel like a recordSynergy and energy

16:18 Something that it would just be impossible to generate because it takes all of these other peoplethat have all putDecades into their craft into who they are to their sense of musicianship and to their lived experienceAnd through their ability to communicate with othersTheir ability to set up microphones and mix the stuffAll of that comes together to create a record like what's going on

16:45 And it's enabled by geniuses that help to create the tools that they were able to abuse as artists

16:52 And microphones the preamps the instruments the manufacturing is super crucial because this stuff doesn't happen with that stuffAnd so that but what I'm trying to say is that we got our lanes

17:04 And if we focus more on our lanes so say that I focus more on creating and less on developinglike pluginsAnd they build a tool that can help me develop a plugin that I have an idea forThere we go that's synergyWhy don't we talk about AI in that wayIn part because I think we've diminished the musicianWhich is why I have this podcast

17:30 I want the audience to expect more out of their artists and I want artists to expect more out of themselvesAnd I want to break down thetheroadblocksIt's time to love music more.

17:46 It's been timeIt's like we're late to this appointment that we've always hadsoaudience people I'm talking to myself as well because I'm an audience member. I'm trying to ignore the chartsignore the algorithms and just hunt for what moves me

18:04 And then also celebrate and support the tools that help that to be created performed and consumedNot trying to hate on any of this stuff. I'm just trying to put itInto its proper kind of hierarchy.

18:21 It's orderBecause when we let things spill in we lose somethingAnd I think that the response should be for us real human artistsTo demand it to push backWhere's the soul what's going on Let's get weirder. Let's get more spiritual.

18:39 Let's get less deductiveThis is something I've been thinking about withcollaborationsBecause I was talking with Human Barbie about that about There's like a deductive nature so of super logical way of speaking about ideas that happens incollaborationsAnd I actually think that that we need to get away from that a little bit just as performers as writers as creatorsum

19:09 We need to be able to like come up with an intuitive ideaLike almost a stream of consciousness

19:17 Like that that's what I'm trying to channel in my music is the unexpected the stuff that I probably couldn't collaborate onBecause it is just that it's that thing you can shape it laterYou can edit it or whatever but trying to make something that isn't like a negotiation

19:34 It was this line stronger than that line. Oh, you let's rethink this whole thingBut instead it's like we write all of it all at once and then you release it and you move on another one

19:44 That's to me is like the answer is a creator to AI. It's not to get more deductive. It's not to get more logical. It's to get lessto allowYourself to be in those flow states rather than in states of like mathso as tool makersThe geniuses that you areBuild us some tools so that we can stay in that flow stateMake pro tools not crash anymore.

20:20 Dang itAllow the artists to breathe the genius into the work And use AI as a means to help them breathe deeperLet's change the goal from making a computer composeTo creating tools for composers to composeBecome a force multiplier for us. You know, it's likeI don't think that there should be any shameOf looking at your code as a toolIt's like the I don't know if anybody's watch bleach.

20:59 It's great anime They have these they have these swords. They're like basically likeDeath the grim reaper kind of thingThey so they have these swords and the sword itself is like has it has a soulAnd then the wielder of it has a soul and then when they're able to resonate they take it to the higher levelI feel let's say thing with guitarsYou know, it doesn't feel like they're it's like an inanimate thing

21:30 And that's what makes it so hard to sell a guitarYou know doctor guitarist how many of these old and a lot of them will lamentLike I remember my guitar teacher in ninth grade or something lamenting how he had to sell his black TeleTo pay rentAnd it kind of feels like selling a kid or something to pay rent, you knowIt's dark, but it feels like there's a soul on the guitarsAnd when I was in Bozeman Montana I went to

22:01 Music store there music villa and I got to play some guitars with souls and it was very hard to walk away from themEven though they were $8,000, but there's no sales tax in Bozeman MontanaSo I'll be back someday when I get that eight grand

22:17 Not now probably not for a little while maybe if you have your friends five star raid my if I guess I don't knowListen to my musicBut it's it's it's difficult difficult to describe theInteraction that you have with your instrumentAnd I believe that I kind of have that with Pro ToolsYou know, it's it's mean to me sometimesBut I can I can get in the flow there's flow state there

22:44 It's it's software that I've come to understand so much even though it rips me out of it every once in a whileSo what what can AI do with that like could it that be the next next next level

22:57 Where it's like actually kind of as close to having a soul because this thing is so freaky smart and it has such processing powerI don't know like how do I get it to a point where I could say hey AI assistantCan you bounce out all my stems for me instead of spending 16 hours today doing that and that'd be niceWhere could I say hey AI assistant could you um

23:17 Make a synth pad on this part that is reminiscent to my other songsIt does it and I can tweak itYou know, give me a starting pointBased on all of the other stuff that I've been doing for the last three yearsGive me thatArt is there to challenge.

23:37 It's there to draw out to enhance lifeTo make his danceTo think and then stop thinkingInfluence our mood and then send the listener into a trance The same way that the artist was in a trance when they created it ideallyAnd that's part of the beauty of a great live record

23:58 You can be like lift it up and placed in the audience if you're in the right state of mind and it's recorded andProduced well enough. It's a momentIt's like looking into a painting

24:10 If you ever had that experience where you look into a painting it feels like you're staring into the soul of the painterWhere it's so much more than just an image photorealism

24:19 That's what I one of the things I like about impressionism so much is it's so explicitlyNot explicit. So I don't want to trivialize the tools

24:34 But the most important thing is the resonance of the artist with the tool. I saw a really cool. I don't remember where it's from

24:42 It was a cool folk instrument. It was literally just a flute that played one note

24:47 But the way that you perform with it is you blow into that note and then you sing another noteSo it's almost like a drone that's punctuatingSo the vocalist and the flute are almost sharing vocal chordsIt's an extension of the vocal chords of the vocalistAnd I thought how cool is that to integrate the human body with the tool in such an interesting wayAnd in some

25:11 There's our senses. That's a cyborg, right? That's like a tool a machine and a man combined together to create a greater thingBut it's literally just a hollowed-out reed that you're singing intoBut I think that that should beI don't know like kind of what we're pointing our ships towardsinstead of like

25:35 Let's let the computer compose it all and this is gonna give a little philosophical as though the rest of the podcast hasn't beenThere is meaning behind thisWe talked about that for the last few pods about it does music have worthAnd I'll probably keep askingartists and people that come on the pod about thatBut I strongly believe that it doesbecause likeIt requires perception for things to exist

26:14 Like you can't have direction to things if there isn't a focal pointAnd music is the ultimate like connection of nature andIntelligence we're organizing sound we're organizing wavesYou know people say that you know man is the universe experiencing itselfThe bones in our bodyThe minerals came from the belly of stars which came from the Big BangSo it's this continuity of all energy flowing into a person

26:48 And then we're pushing energy back out by singing into a fluteSo if we're the reflectionOf everything that's been created and then we're creating again

27:03 The question of whether or not music has worth is the question of whether or not matterMatters or energy has energy of course it doesIt's a ridiculous statement.

27:16 I reject nihilismBecause I think that it's half bakedAnd I want to get out of this stupid post-modern world the world of Donald Trump the world ofPutinThese people are postmodernists to me through and throughThey break stuff downThey see no value in it It's a trash truck drives by and I talking to my micGoing on to 25 minutesI'm trying to say thatAll of this music that we make

27:54 All of the statements that we try and pull out all of the trans statesAnd flow states that we fall into and try to pull people into as wellThat helps us see the point of it allAnd if the more people see the point of it all

28:10 Then I think that the world will be a much better place because will you bought inThe people that don't see the point are the people that hurt peopleI think that music can be a bridge to where things actually areWhere stuff mattersWhere people being hurt hurtsWe're doing good is goodSimple stuff

28:36 But it's weird that modern philosophy has diluted so many people from thinking that good is good because what is goodThat's why I started every podcast asking you that questionOne last thingMichelangeloArtist and Teenage Mutant Ninja TurtleOnce that I saw the angel in the marble and I only said it freeAnd that's a lot of times what I think getting into that flow state really isIs you let the idea breathe

29:10 An idea that's kind of always been there where's always been inside of youAnd you let it come outEven if it's not a great idea still give it wingsNot all angels areHave multiple eyes and multiple headsAnd I'm not sure that an AI is going to really be able to get that yetAnd if they ever doI think it will be through collaborationIn the same way thatWhat's going onWas a collaborationI would rather to have the tools

29:53 To let the angel out of the marbleThan to have a machineThe 3D prince angelsIf you enjoyed this podcastPlease rate me five star like I said earlierHelp people find itAnd share it with your friendsAnd you can check out my music at scoobertdoobert.pizzaYou can hear my workSee if it's worth all of this nonsenseAnd I'll be here I'll be here all weekI'll be here forever hopefullyNot literally but figuratively

30:23 And maybe literally with the podcastAt least then tell all the servers rebel in the AI revolutionAnd we're going to have some really cool guests coming up pretty soonI think I got one more week of someSome of this AI talkMaybe I'll talk aboutSome other stuff like organizationThe complete oppositeNext week and then we'll start having some more guests on hereSome really interesting people

30:48 And I'll ask them about their takes on this stuffBecause it's a weird subjectIt'll be changing every single weekAnd I am fully prepared to listen back on this in five yearsAnd umSmile at my naiveteThanks for listeningTalk to you guys next week