{ "schemaVersion": "v1", "slug": "fishbowls-of-influence", "title": "Fishbowls of Influence", "kind": "solo", "listenUrl": "https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/lovemusicmore/episodes/Fishbowls-of-Influence-e3oqha5", "contentStartSec": 57.91, "publishedAt": "2026-10-14", "source": { "provider": "whisper", "model": "faster-whisper:small", "normalizedSchema": "v1", "transcribedAt": "2026-10-13T15:45:07.171Z" }, "paragraphs": [ { "startSec": 57.91, "endSec": 81.55, "text": "What's good everybody?Scoobert Doobert here on Love Music Moreone of the things that we've talked aboutyou know since the very beginninghas been what are notes?You know how do we make music?Why do we love music?What makes a note or a chord interesting to usor sound pretty to us or consonantas the fancy music theory word?Why does consonants exist?And then contrast that to dissonance" }, { "startSec": 81.55, "endSec": 107.07, "text": "like a tritone, a cluster chord,something where the notes are jumbled over each other.Why does that sound the way that it does?And there are these edge cases,these different cultures that challengethe clean idea of well the musicthat we like is the right music.And that's not necessarily to saythat it discredits either, you know?Western music can be really cool.Gamelan music can be really cool." }, { "startSec": 107.07, "endSec": 136.57, "text": "In Indonesia where they do, you know,a bunch of different hitched percussion instrumentsthat sound to a lot of peoplewho hear it for the first time.Pretty chaotic and wild.It's a different conceptualization of orchestral music.And same thing if you look at folk traditionsthroughout the entire world, regional music,microtonal music, there's just this incredible diversity.However, across a lot of that," }, { "startSec": 136.57, "endSec": 159.97, "text": "there is a push and pull over what is right.So it's like, yeah, maybe one of these other culturescome up with something that they like it,but maybe that's their own cultural lens,turning them to like somethingversus something that is true and mathematic and pure.I wrote a blog post on Pythagorasand about all the musical ratiosand the idea of there's a perfect fifth" }, { "startSec": 159.97, "endSec": 186.01, "text": "and there's a perfect octave and there's a perfect fourth.And everything is an inversion of the other.They're all perfectly imbalanced.There's like a symmetry to music itself.And if you can tell by my tone of voice, I'm skeptical.However, I also like it.I find it really pretty and alluring.So I get it and I do make Western musicwith Western pitches largelyand I participate in this." }, { "startSec": 186.01, "endSec": 209.33, "text": "So I like it and it would be really, really coolif the music of the spheres was realwhere everybody thought that the distancefrom the earth to Mars was like a major secondor whatever the hell they said.And everything across the entire universewas all of these perfect ratios, perfectly in harmonyand in tune with each other.And obviously the real world is a lot more messy" }, { "startSec": 209.33, "endSec": 233.81, "text": "than that in the same way that equal temperament,meaning we take these perfect ratiosand we round them down or up a little bit.And we make it so that we can playin all of the different keys, play in a bigger ensemble.And yeah, while we might not exactly be playingthe ratio for a major third, it's close enough.And that's where it starts to break down, right?It's like you're looking at it and saying," }, { "startSec": 233.81, "endSec": 255.53, "text": "okay, we're making all of these compromisesmuch in the same way that you think aboutgeocentrism versus heliocentrism,like where the earth is the center of the universe.It's like, okay, wait, no, actually the sunis the center of the solar systemand everywhere is the center of the universeall at the exact same time.And now it starts to get a little messier.But that's fun, you know, both can be fun." }, { "startSec": 255.53, "endSec": 282.85, "text": "You can learn stuff even through conceptsthat might not necessarily be true,but you can still come up with cool stuffusing math to influence music,using music to influence physics,all that can be useful and take youto a new and special placeor make you make really interesting music.But fundamentally, you don't necessarilyhave to defend it like a religion.So I'm always on the lookout for interesting studies" }, { "startSec": 282.85, "endSec": 307.21, "text": "and cultures that can challenge this worldviewbecause I also think that this can yieldreally awesome music.Cause it can, like I had a professorand he talked about how you're in a fishbowl.And like the fish does not recognize his own fishbowl.It just is, it is the water in which it inhabits.And you don't recognize that you're in the wateruntil you plucked from it.But then you can look back at the fishbowl" }, { "startSec": 307.21, "endSec": 329.57, "text": "for a little bit before you die.And you can reflect on it and go,huh, that's the world that I lived in.But when you're a fish talking to a bunch of other fish,you're like, clearly this is the entire world.This is what it is.This is what it is to make music.And so anything that can kind of puncture thata little bit, hopefully while you're stillable to breathe under the water, a mirror perhaps," }, { "startSec": 329.57, "endSec": 352.09, "text": "those can be really usefulbecause I think that they can also make youmake different music that you might not have thought of.In the same way that learning microtonality,like the little tiny ways like I had a great guest onwho talked about 31 Tet, which is splitting up the octaveinstead of the 12 tones that we haveinto 31 distinct tones.And that's arbitrary.You could turn it into a hundred distinct tones" }, { "startSec": 352.09, "endSec": 376.09, "text": "if you wanted to.But there's something to it,especially when you're playing a stringed instrument,a fretted stringed instrumentor an unfretted stringed instrumentwhere you can lean in and out of being in tunefor a musical effect, for a purposeful thing.The blues does this a lot.Melisma does this a lot.The human voice does this a lotwhere you are not necessarily like keyboard pitch perfect." }, { "startSec": 376.09, "endSec": 403.65, "text": "You hit the note, the note sounds.You are kind of dancing in and out of that note.And there's something magical toowhere you can give an ensemble the ability to pick.And this happens in choirs oftenwhere you'll have a new sort of temperament, like tuning,that can emerge from a choir if it's unaccompanied.They can be very beautiful and haunting and interestingbecause everyone is reacting to everyone else." }, { "startSec": 403.65, "endSec": 421.09, "text": "And now that's hard.If you add in a keyboard,you probably want to get more in tune.In the same way that if you're recording with a band,that's a lot of times when a click track comes inbecause you want to have everybodyon the metronome on the same beat.But if you're just recording by yourself,sometimes it's cool to let it wobble.If you're recording all in one room" }, { "startSec": 421.09, "endSec": 441.53, "text": "and you don't have to go back and layer on instruments,you're not collaborating with digital versus analogand it's just all analogs.Sometimes it's cool to free yourselfof one of those constraintsin the same way that timing can be a constraint.Pitch can also be a constraint.Cuts both ways.Sometimes you're just out of tune.But other times the moment where you're out of tune" }, { "startSec": 441.53, "endSec": 465.93, "text": "is like the coolest, most emotional part of the song.And so identifying that and being open to that,so when you're in Melodyne or autotune,you can make the decision.Do I want to slam that out of tune note or is it cool?What is the context?Those decisions are the true decisions.Just because you have the tool to perfect something,it doesn't mean that you always want to reachfor that tool." }, { "startSec": 465.93, "endSec": 496.13, "text": "And that's why I think it's good to get outsidethe fishbowl where you can.So I want to talk about the Tsimane.This is an indigenous people living in the Bolivian Amazon.If you've got a map, the lowlands of Beniis the general region.They have different communities,varying levels of contact with nearby townsand wider society,so they are not entirely on an island.However, there's a difference in outside contact" }, { "startSec": 496.13, "endSec": 523.49, "text": "between different groups of the Tsimane.And they have their own musical traditions.So there's this oral tradition of traditional songspassed down from generations,a bunch of singing, flute-like instruments,things like that.And these songs that carry stories, practical knowledge,things that you would expect,stuff that humans have been doing since humans existed.And it's not about them discovering music" }, { "startSec": 523.49, "endSec": 551.09, "text": "or discovering a completely different music.It's talking about how does musical environmentshape your fishbowl?And is there a right answer?As in, is there a certain type of consonants,like good-sounding notes, good-sounding intervals,good-sounding chords?Or is that something that we've learned?So from one perspective, there is a goodbecause it is architecturally pure.It is mathematically pure.It's a bunch of ratios." }, { "startSec": 551.09, "endSec": 585.26, "text": "And the question is, is that anticipating?What would be true?Like if you met an alien, would they agreethat a major third sounds good?Or is that post-hoc, where we're saying,hey, we like this from our fishbowl,therefore it is true?So in the Tsimane, harmony, polyphony,not huge major features.So the idea of like a bunch of instrumentsplaying together, playing different things.Relatively small number of pitches," }, { "startSec": 585.26, "endSec": 614.23, "text": "not a huge range of melodic intervals.And part of the cool thing about the studyis the distribution.So you have different members of the Tsimane that have different outside groups, different songs.And the older adults, much more likelythan the younger adults to be performingthis traditional music.So another part of the story, right,is that the musical environment is changingand it's adapting." }, { "startSec": 614.23, "endSec": 639.95, "text": "And also this is kind of one of the rare momentswhere we can actually assess thisbefore it might be gone forever.Which is kind of super sad, right?And that's part of the things I feel weirdabout anthropology, anthropology is a thing.Is that the second you go and you study a groupas though it's like a science experiment,how does that group change?I don't know, there's a whole ethics to that" }, { "startSec": 639.95, "endSec": 664.03, "text": "that I don't really understand.But it's interesting to think about.Anyway, researchers traveled in 2011.No electricity, no running water,it was only reachable via canoe.And 64 people participated.These researchers brought headphonesand they played different types of sounds.And they were just trying to figure out,do you like this sound a lot?A little, dislike it?That's like it a lot." }, { "startSec": 664.03, "endSec": 698.35, "text": "And for a control group of Western listeners,there's a very strong tendency for consonant.Like a major third, a major triad, a major scale.But these Tsimane participants did not showthat preference nearly at all.So conventional wisdom of a conventional consonant sound,a good sound was not reliably rated as more pleasantthan dissonant sounds.The stuff that feels icky or swampy or clustery to us." }, { "startSec": 698.35, "endSec": 734.98, "text": "But what I like about this is that it's not, not hearing.They can tell the difference in the sounds.It is pleasant versus unpleasant.It is the like psychological response to music.And their hearing worked the same.Like they had all these different controlsto try and figure out that surprising result.So they were judging, they were hearing,they had music, but they lacked preference." }, { "startSec": 734.98, "endSec": 754.98, "text": "Or I should say they lacked preference in the waythat we thought that they should have preference, right?Is it's not necessarily saying they didn't have any preference.They liked the music that they made.They liked the music that they were exposed to.They liked their fishbowl,but their fishbowl was so different than ours.And I think that that helps us kind of seewhere the limits are of what we're doing." }, { "startSec": 754.98, "endSec": 791.08, "text": "And hopefully it can expand our own limits.This is not necessarily just a time capsule.This is a cultural relative isolation kind of exercise.So a decade later, they go back.Some have road access.Some have electricity.Some have cell service.Some lived in towns now.Now a lot of the new Christian hymns.So they tried to figure out using thatas a natural experiment.Who spent more time in towns?" }, { "startSec": 791.08, "endSec": 824.39, "text": "What was the distance to population centers?Who had electricity, television, phones, radios?Who knew Christian hymns?This is new.This is 2023-2024.They found incredible variationbetween these communities.So this didn't mean everything changed,but it did mean that greater exposureto this outside musical culturewas associated with a growing preferencefor that consonance.So it's an interesting thing to be able to see" }, { "startSec": 824.39, "endSec": 851.67, "text": "different levels of cultural integration.And it's not necessarily saying thatWestern music rewired their brains.I think that it is just sayingthat as you integrate cultures,and this might be the whole global melting pot kind of idea,we might also lose something.And how can we use that to hopefully not lose it?How can we record this music,have this music as part of the global understanding," }, { "startSec": 851.67, "endSec": 893.48, "text": "and also look at our own selves and say,okay, it's not necessarily saying that consonance is fake.But the fact that another fellow human beingwas able to have a remarkably different,like, psychoacoustical responseto things that we take for grantedshould help us hopefully take less of that for grantedand maybe make some weirder music.Because not everybody hears the same music.If you enjoyed this episode," }, { "startSec": 893.48, "endSec": 914.48, "text": "I would love to invite you to subscribeand also check out some of those older episodeson notes and Pythagoras,and also my substack,lovemusicmore.substack.com,where I write about this kind of stuff.This is scoobertdoobert.pizza.We have episodes every single week.Hope you tune in for them.Hope you like, subscribe, share with your friends,and I'll see you next week." } ], "correctionsApplied": [ { "id": "scoobart-alone", "count": 1, "note": "Partial host first name ASR typo" }, { "id": "scooberdubert-url", "count": 1, "note": "Outro URL ASR typo" 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